User talk:Deborahjay/Archive 1

Welcome to my Archive of messages posted in 2006:

Initial advice on translators' activity (response to {{helpme}} req)

{{helpme}} Deborahjay 15:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, as a first step, you may lke to put your name on Wikipedia:Translators available so people can contact you for translation help. Is there a particular thing with which you need help? If you have a specfic question, please ask and put the {{helpme}} tag back so we know to check back. Cheers, Tangotango 15:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You can usually reply to your own messages at the other person's talk page, but since this is a {{helpme}} request, you can also reply here, on your own talk page. (I'm sorry, I have to dash off soon - if you want, you can leave me a message on my talk page which I'll reply to tomorrow.) If you ask a question on this page and put {{helpme}} on it again, someone will be able to answer your question, usually in a few minutes. Cheers, Tangotango 15:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Deborahjay, thank you for your kind comments :). I personally find articles on the Japanese Wikipedia that don't have counterparts, or only very slim counterparts, on the English Wikipedia and translate them into articles here. You could try the same with the Hebrew Wikipedia. You can, of course, do anything that isn't translation - browsing through articles, correcting and expanding them is a fine way to edit Wikipedia. - Tangotango 07:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Printing a Wikipedia article's text in MS Word (was {{helpme}} query)

I'm a new volunteer translator here, and I'm not succeeding in creating a document file in MS Word 2000 in which I paste the copied text of the source article.
I'd appreciate advice! (and also re: how to conduct a dialogue here). Thanks! Deborahjay

I can't really give you any help with MS Word if the problem is with the program, but if you look in the "toolbox" in the link list on the side of the screen there is a link for "Printable version", which creates a cleaner version of a page intended for printing. I've used cut and paste to take text off of those pages for use in MS Word 2003 without any problems, it even copies most of the text formatting very well. -Dawson 16:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Dawson -- I hope you can read this! (I can't figure out where else to reply... :-/

I hadn't noticed the "Printable Version" feature, and will go try that now. I'll report back re: results. Deborahjay

I can read it, you replied correctly. Just make sure you sign all your comments with four tilde (~) marks so people know it is you talking. :) -Dawson 16:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again, Dawson, and for your further advice about the signature. (This was my first actual dialogue; my posted entries got my user name added automatically so I hadn't realized the four-tilde signature is particularly needed in Talk. Likewise first alert that I had a new message -- yours :-)

The "Printable Version" feature works fine, and I now have the article formatted for translation and have already started.

I can see my high motivation is already reaping rewards in how much I'm learning and practicing my editing skills (e.g. adding links). This is exciting! Deborahjay 16:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Translations

I just answered your question at the help desk. Let me know if you need any help with Spanish translations as that is what I do a lot of. With regard to the discussion I perused above, I have found it very useful to have a translation subpage on my talk page, rather than using a word processing program. To create a subpage, just type a link at the top of this page in a form not unlike this: [[User talk:Deborahjay/subpage|Translation]]. The page will then be red-linked--just click on it to create the page. It allows you to translate with all the wikilinks and wikiformatting working. Just be careful when you put things like categories and interlanguage links on the page to put them in nowiki tags, or the subpage will propagate into categories, etc.--Fuhghettaboutit 00:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Fuhghettaboutit! I must admit I find much of this bewildering as yet, but I'm progressing steadily if slowly. (This present stretch of time has turned out to be unexpectedly busy for me :-/

I'll try the subpage you suggest, and please be assured your advice is welcome. Communication with fellow translators, here as elsewhere, is vital to me!! (You'll see I commented at your own talk page as well, even before seeing your message to me here!  :-) Deborahjay 00:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You are most welcome.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

FrankB's 2nd Welcome

Hi! Followed you over from NewComer Help, as I'm on the welcoming committee (of sorts). You've fallen through a crack, it would seem! (I make the occasional post on the helps, so I left you a longer answer there than you may want! You may find yourself 'detained', as a matter of fact. <g>)

I took the liberty of dropping a template on 'style' guides on your page for you to reference, but you may want that on your user page instead. I also tidied up a bit.

Again, don't feel inhibited about asking for help! Best regards, // FrankB 16

50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

FrankB, thanks sooooo much for the (unexpected) pair of Welcome messages you added here! You are welcome, indeed :-D

Your explanation does fill in the picture, as I've been beavering away for ten days equipped only what I could gather on my own, aided by a few, specific {{helpme}} and New Contributor pleas that were helpfully answered.

The Style template (which I did move to my User Page; thanks for the suggestion :-) seems to have numerous links that are highly pertinent to my actual needs at present. (Yes, it is rather daunting and will indeed detain me, but of my own free will -- as I consider it'll be time well spent, an investment in my learning curve here.)

So only after I read those will I ask specific questions -- but believe me, I will! There are still quite a few things I do poorly, or hesitate to attempt, and I'm prioritizing these so as to streamline my functioning here (which from the outset has become a daily activity, including thinking about what I intend to do).

I feel I've made a lot of progress so far, diligently (albeit somewhat haphazardly) pursuing an assortment of translation/editing tasks and lining up more. So far, practicing with minor edits has been a good way for me to develop facility (especially working between foreign language versions), and pinpointing mechanisms I need to learn. The biggest surprise so far is how much I can already contribute: e.g. I come to fix typos and "nativize" grammar/usage, and discover I can make substantive corrections and even additions!

I'll be back...but shall start with one question to you: how are you alerted of my response here (i.e. my Talk Page, continuation of a dialogue initiated by you)? (My more general questions, I'll write on the New Contributors' Help Page so others can benefit by the answer too :-) Thanks! Deborahjay 05:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Some Answers_01

re:

Yo, FrankB, this is one of your newbies squeaking up :-) Am having difficulty getting some elements on my User Page to line up nicely, and I'm hoping you can advise me. (This is described on my Talk page, if you'd like to take a look...)

Also (while we're at it), I'm still feeling clumsy and bewildered about the whole communications setup within WP (e.g. Talk pages, e-mailing, non-reciprocal watching, etc.). Please advise me as to how to proceed. Thanks! (And by the way, I'm located at GMT+3 but stay up late and get up early... :-) Deborahjay 20:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. -- I'd be only too pleased to oblige with the "bottom posting" to which you refer -- but frankly, my dear, I don't understand what it's about (crossposting alerts for communications?) and how to perform it!  :-/ Deborahjay 21:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If I were any good at it, (and I'm not), 'watching my watchlist' would tell me that, assuming of course, I'd watchlisted the page (which I did). See my talk, note the third box down on 'requested Talk protocols', but not even I follow it blindly. I'm pretty good at adding the small note 'Hey, see my answer ________. Name.

Please see User_talk:Fabartus/TUP#THE_USUAL_PLACE for some additional resources to tap; note the. #@$%*&)#@*!!! (The list of resources, one of which was a link to others on the 'welcome committee' thereon was 'NOT SAVED' prior to the long holiday weekend here!, it may in fact be somewhere back in this browser window! Grrrrrrr!

Anyway, check in there now and again. I'll be around 'only INfrequently' this week, but will be checking messages now and again. Find my link to 'Admins' on my user page (user:fabartus), plus that to the(list of) 'Welcoming Committee members' and 'mine' anything and everything there as you like.

On Bottom Posting— your query: The default skin has a '+' tab on talk pages that auto-appends a new section... At the page bottom. That's one sure method, but leaves a new section and title. Seems a bit of overkill for 'Hey, see my answer on _____' type messages, but the page owner can go and 'clean things up' by deleting incidental titles as they prefer (housekeeping). The other is to just page or scan down to the last section, and 'section edit' a note onto same. The result is the same, save for the summary line.

Generally, I CnP the briefest messages into the summary line, but design them for 'time-independent' relavance (i.e. when re-read two months from now, say!) which get retained by page history, contribs, and other 'special pages' (i.e. part of the database admin records, in a 'technical' sense.)

As an 'temporal distinction', this is tacked onto a prior section, as a 'bottom post' within this section... which is not uncommon on individual's talk pages, so as to keep the thread 'together'... again a provision, looking forward, but also just easier for all. YOU after all, get a banner alert that a post has been left on your talk. DO check your talk page history now and then when getting such, incase there has been multiple posts to your talk—otherwise you may miss one like this within a section!!!

I'll peek at your user page issues in a bit, and respond down where you asked Commander Keane about same.

Best wishes, FrankB 13:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments on your user page

Hi Deborahjay,

I'm glad you've managed to find what you're looking for, I hope you're finding your user page useful and things friendly here generally. I like the page very much - useful info but doesn't go over the top. One suggestion I'd make is to move your user boxes to underneath your babel boxes - in your case in particular, the user boxes are very useful to highlight some very wiki-relevant skills and experience. Currently, anyone not using a very high screen resolution will have to scroll down to see your userboxes, which is a shame. Also, may I recommend that you subst in your userboxes (it puts a permanent one-off copy in there instead of doing a lookup for the content of the template every time the page is read), this will ensure their survival if the template gets deleted, and seems to offend anti-userbox purists less.

Very interesting articles btw - one of the many things I'm fascinated by is the Holocaust (and WW2 to a lesser extent).

Cheers, and welcome again. — Estarriol ^talk 12:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thanks so much for your (positive :-) feedback and suggestions, Estarriol. I'd definitely like to move my set of userboxes up under the Babel boxes, and also to use the subst, but would you please explain how (or... ummm... do it for me and I'll look at the results)?

I've been tightening up the format of my User Page but already find it serves my intended purpose (i.e. providing a quick overview plus links to my initial editing activity, some of which merits return visits as I learn better techniques.)

Yes, I felt a list of my "credentials" belonged there, as I do work (and live, for that matter!) in some tendentious areas. I have the rare and extraordinary privilege of studying the Holocaust as part of my job (as translator/editor for the archives and website of a major Holocaust museum and study center, which will become more evident as I develop my projects here).

I can see there's plenty for me to do in Wikipedia, and I intend to apply the same conscientious approach I use with my ongoing work elsewhere in the field.

Meanwhile, I'm still learning the ropes (content AND style) and value your input. Please stick with me! I greatly appreciate the advice and support. :-D Deborahjay 13:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, that sounds like a fantastic job, I wish I were doing something like that rather than computer stuff. I've had a tinker with your user page as requested, if you don't like it, please revert.  :-) — Estarriol ^talk 19:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I like it fine!! You've definitely provided the sensible improvements you'd suggested (= raising the userboxes and importing their formatting syntax to the page itself) and to which I'd gladly agreed. Excellent intervention!

This frees me to focus on learning what I'll need for my next projects, which are becoming more ambitious. You're welcome to follow my activity and please continue to advise me! Deborahjay 20:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Noa

Nice additions/amendments. Dweller 17:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's so thoughtful of you to send me feedback -- thanks! :-D

I've barely been here two weeks, and this was the first stub I appreciably expanded (i.e. rather than little patch-ins, or translating an entire existing article). Mainly I relied on my own knowledge of Noa's career (which I've been following since 1991) but I got content ideas from the four existing foreign-language versions, and checked the info per the English-language official website.

I still can't believe there's no article in Hebrew!! I'm hoping someone will come along and create one -- or maybe someday, after I've caught up on other priorities, I'll try writing it myself. (Then I'll find out how my ego copes with having my work edited ;-) Deborahjay 17:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Recommended portals and a project (was: Hi! from Humus sapiens)

Hi and welcome, Deborahjay. I saw some of your contributions and found them to be of high quality. FYI, you might be interested in Portal:Israel, Portal:Judaism and/or WP:JEWISH-HIST. There are many other wiki-projects and portals. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Cheers, indeed! Acknowledgment is always welcome, but yours is especially valued, Humus sapiens, given your experience in the realm of editing Wikipedia. It's of course gratifying that you approve of the quality of my contributions, and I hope to maintain that standard by exercising good judgment and ply my skills.

I'm contemplating adding some pertinent bio notes about myself on my User Page, to give interested others an idea of who this new editor is and where she's coming from. I'm still formulating this, but for our present purpose here, suffice it to say that besides my having a good fund of knowledge and orientation toward information editing, I'm in the enviable position of writing on Jewish history for a living -- and working with some of the extraordinary individuals who've made it. (e.g. the man at the desk next to mine is the pseudonymous hero of "The Story of Avrom," by Primo Levi...!)

You've done me a great favor by directing me to the portals, of whose existence I'd been unaware. They'll serve me as an effective channel of focus, as along with developing my own To-Do list, it's worthwhile for me to continue editing articles others have flagged for attention. As for the Jewish history project, you'll soon see that I'm signing on there.

Other than that, may I humbly invite you to check in on my activities from time to time?

(Oh, and one more thing -- I love your User Page, and would like to use elements from its formatting, if you wouldn't mind...? :-D

!ח ג _ ש מ ח ! Deborahjay 15:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Sure, reuse whatever you like, thanks for asking. I do not watch others. To contact someone, I suggest to leave a message at their talk page - then they'll see the orange alert. Cheers and hag sameach. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Fixing placement of userboxes on User Page

I've encountered a problem with the placement of the userbox column (executed by Estarriol). My home computer has a wide (15.4") screen and the display looks fine (as cheerfully noted above), but the one at the office is considerably narrower. The horizontal placement of the userbox column -- shifted one position to the left -- seriously cramps the content of the "Articles edited" section next to which it appears. Is it possible to situate the userboxes along the page's right-hand margin, directly underneath the Babel boxes (which I like where they are)? The "Guide to Style" box can remain at the bottom of the page, since it's mainly there for my convenient access and wouldn't interest visitors to my User Page. Thanks! Deborahjay 19:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

{{helpme}} is for questions regarding the building of the encyclopedia.--Commander Keane 19:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thanks, Commander Keane -- though I'm not sure I understand what's meant by "building of the encyclopedia" (i.e., writing and editing articles?)...?

So how might you suggest I seek assistance in formatting my User Page as above? Thanks, Deborahjay 20:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: for now, I've wrangled this in a makeshift fashion (i.e. doing my best, such as it is) by adjusting the placement of the userboxes relative to the content sections of the page. So long as the Contents box is open (per "show"), the display is as I want it.
However, when the Contents box contents are "hidden," the userbox set jumps one column to the left and its top slightly overlaps the Babel boxes -- and again I get that display with the left-hand sections cramped to the left in an unsightly manner.
What to do? is there formatting syntax I can insert that will fix the userboxes' position over on the right margin of the page? Deborahjay 01:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I've not managed to replicate the problem on any version of your page, so I don't know what to suggest — it all looks good to me. BTW, since you were asking about communications above, here's a snippet you may or may not have picked up yet — if you want to make sure a particular user gets a message, leave it (or a pointer to it — e.g. "I have replied on my talk page") on their talk page, as this will give them the "you have new messages" header when they are next on Wikipedia. Seems like you're doing very well though.  :-) — Estarriol ^talk 09:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for checking, Estarriol, and for your encouraging feedback. I appreciate your watching me, as I'm still more tentative than bold :-)

Even so, the editing I've done in my first half-month here seems to be passing muster, and I know I'm learning and making progress (and gaining confidence ;-) all the time. Deborahjay 06:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Try inserting

<div style="clear: both"/>

←Humus sapiens ^ну? 11:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right, Humus sapiens: that does serve to fix the userboxes at the right-hand margin of my User Page, as I'd intended.

An unanticipated result is that "hide" details of the Content box produces an empty space in the text display. The blank area corresponds to the length of the userboxes, so I suspect this has to do with the placement of the edit commands that govern the display -- something beyond my ken. (I've tried tinkering with it, and only made a mess!  :-o

What I'd like now is to close up the vertical space between my Babel and the userboxes. I'd appreciate an explanation of how to do this (or, ummmm... you have my permission to execute, if you'd agree? :-)

Thanks again, Deborahjay 06:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

See if my edit works, feel free to undo. Perhaps WP:TABLE would help. There is also general WP:HELP and WP:HD. When I see something I like, I'd play with it in WP:SAND or preview without saving. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Works like the proverbial charm -- excellent fix, Humus sapiens! Now the double set of boxes remains stable regardless of whether the Contents box is in "hide" or "show" display mode. Thanks for this, and also these WP internal links that I'd been lacking (& which I'll add to my Quick Refs subpage :-) Deborahjay 08:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Feeling guilty

I'm glad you have a satisfactory solution. I'm afraid I plumb forgot my intent to get back an peruse your problem... but 'RL' is mostly keeping me off WikiP at this time. So apologies!

Be advised which browser you use and whether you use a skin other than the default can play havoc with tight display 'desires'. Generally, IE6 displays different than everyone else's... one of the reasons they got sued by about half-the-states and the U.S. Department of Justice around the turn of the century.

Unfortunately, the 'legal settlements' didn't settle the underlying design issues, so it's expeditious to check all combinations before feeling 'safe' with a given solution. They don't follow the same Java and HTML standards as everyone else— shrug.

On the office vs home monitors... Assuming you're stuck with IE6 at, let's assume the office, the dropdown menus from View give you two options you may not know about involving text size, which would eliminate some of your symptoms, perhaps, at the expense of increased 'squinting'.

Specifically, [ALT-V][x] (View--->Text Size) allows you to select one of five different text sizes for browsing. MS ususally defaults to 'Medium', iirc, so that should give you two selections of finer fonts and two of larger fonts.

View--->Toolbars---->Customize ([ALT-V],[T],[C]) allows you to add a view sizes click tool to the browser toolbar. Essentially, this gives you a mouse shortcut to the same text menu size choices, which is what I do. (I try to make large edits in IE6, as it will natively search into the edit window for typos and such using CTRL-F searching (there is a script fix for this in Firefox, but I haven't implimented it yet!). It also doesn't loose history off the back end of the que... I can backspace until I get to the first page I entered, no matter how many other pages I hit going forward. (Why this is important to me!) I can loose things off the end of Firefox, but like all tools, each has their strengths and weaknesses, though it can keep you on your toes keeping such straight! Thankfully, many of the hotkeys are the same across many browsers!

More modern browsers, simply use [CTRL][+] and [CTRL][-] to size text and don't limit you to a mere five choices either. Mozilla Firefox is the newest entry in that group, and has some nice Wikipedia extensions as well. Most of the software savants here swear by it, as do most tech-types in general. Just Google Mozilla and download.

Two nice features make it very WikiP nice: (1) is browser tabbing, allowing a series of URL driven pages to be open on and off Wiki with seperate history ques. This is particularly nice for working on related pages, and consulting source pages, et. al. and using the cut buffer to transfer things you'd rather not type. OTOH, there seems to be a limit as to how much backing down one can do in a chain of edits and browsing, though it's reasonably large. (2) The Bookmarks toolbar: Allows easy to access ready at hand URL's for instant checks. Mine is loaded with Category, Template, Talk, Watchlist, Dictionary, Encyclopedia Links and such — reference stuff that I may want at a moments notice, then generally want to close up just as quickly. (e.g. My Contribs page... sorted several different ways— allows me to check the name of that image file I uploaded two days back, or that article talk page I want to check back on periodically, or go to that map source page or the US Library of Congress, etc. almost effortlessly.)

Wikipedia:BabelYou haven't set up any languages. Please see Template:Babel/doc for help.Search user languages

On Closing up your Boxes: This is straight-forward. Use a bigger babel box, and let the templates ({{babel}}) do the work. Most of yours look like a mess right now because of the userbox controversy 'shake-out' to subst them, and someone's running a robot that does this. Hence they've been expanded. See This where I did some rearranging myself last week. IIRC, user boxes need the word 'user' in front. Others don't. If they preview correctly, then all should be fine. Note you can also display in two or three or even six(!) columns as you desire. Just copy the top of your user page to a temp page, and play. When you're satisfied, CnP everything back to the user page. Best wishes, FrankB 15:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• No shake out; substing was my suggestion to Deborahjay to avoid the wrath of the anti-userboxites when she got into a bit of a touchy discussion of it on the help page. Hopefully we'll see policy on this soon; I'm finding the userbox arguments a bit tedious (although I can see the argument for substing, actually). Thanks to everyone for helping Deborahjay sort it out. — Estarriol ^talk 08:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Help req: restoring sidebox image of userbox

I have fixed the problem, and explained it on my talk page. Cheers.  :-) — Estarriol ^talk 08:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• I've replied on my talk page regarding your substing question; I've also reverted to the image used in the original template — the red X may have been vandalism of the image or perhaps just the result of a bad link. If you prefer the museum photo to the frontal image, just revert my last edit. Cheers. — Estarriol ^talk 15:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the proofread on my user page

I'm a bit of a spelling/grammar freak but the lack of apostrophe in "its" (possessive)* has always eluded my brain until just a few weeks ago (just as "forty" as the correct spelling of the number always used to, aarggh), and I haven't actually read my own userpage since then. Thanks for fixing the error, as it would have irritated me immensely had it gone unnoticed for months on end! — Estarriol ^talk 15:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I was glad for the spontaneous opportunity to patch in a fix, after all the manifest support you've given me! I'm not a bona fide expert in every aspect of grammar, but I am a professional (i.e. I do it for money ;-) and in my line of work, the proofreading's thrown in gratis...

* A handy tip: as you type that apostrophe, subvocalize to yourself, "It_is..." It'll sound silly if what you really need is the possessive -- in which case, backspace. Either way, move on confidently!

Cheers! Deborahjay 16:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Aid and Rescue Committee

Hi Deborahjay. I seem to have stuffed that one up! Sorry about the revert. I've fixed it up again. I've been monitoring recent changes and reverting vandalism but I've no idea what happened there. Thanks for pointing out the error. - Gimboid13 06:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

AK, AL etc

Deborah, you make me blush. It's a long time since I met so polite and well-tempered person on wikipedia. Please, accept my apologise if any of my previous posts were in any way offensive. Especially please forgive me the misunderstanding - I still keep to forget that in English "nationalist" is not Polish "nacjonalizm". In Polish "nacjonalizm" is pejorative term and no Pole would call AK as having the ideology called "nacjonalizm". NSZ (part of which was then lossely incorporated into AK structures) was "nacjonalistyczna". Szopen 10:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What you so nicely refer to as my being "polite and well-tempered" -- and I'm sorry to learn that you don't encounter this more on Wikipedia! -- is an outgrowth of my being a professional writer on the Holocaust for a Web readership. As I have an agenda when representing my place of work, this is decidedly not NPOV, but nevertheless must be scrupulous and conscientious, written with academic integrity, so as not to draw criticism and antagonize readers. Besides the topic being fraught with contention in this age of Holocaust denial, I have to contend with being identified as a Jew and an Israeli. All the more reason to write and edit with care.

I really appreciate our dialogue and thank you for writing here. I read your comments with sympathy, and want you to know that I myself come from a family originating in Central and Eastern Europe, all of whose members (as far as we know) left Europe prior to the Holocaust. So my humility in the face of those who experienced WWII themselves is genuine. (My father served in the Pacific Theater, as it happens, which was bad enough.) Consider yourself forgiven, and blush no more :-) Deborahjay 01:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what article the dialogue above is about, but I'd like to ask you something. My subjects are pretty much history and film, and I am fascinated by the history of Soviet forces in WW2, but would argue I myself am a relative outsider on this subject. I'd like to ask you whether you have information about AK anti-Semitism. Please could you provide me with links to factual information (not opinion) about AK anti-Semitism? I ask because in my reading on the subject so far it shows that the AK are a rather unknown group outside Poland. It seems they had many Jewish members, they supplied the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, they were trying to liberate Auschwitz long before the Soviet arrival, they were trying to spread the word about the Holocaust to the uninterested Brits and Americans, they got a (gentile) mole into Auschwitz, and they ran a number of operations to harbor Jews, and there is a whole bunch of them at Yad Vashem. Jewish AK members were liberated at Auschwitz only to be put on trial by the Soviets for being members of an outlaw organization. The chief rabbi of the Polish army, an officer, was executed by the Soviets at Katyn. Polish Jews deported to the Gulags with Polish gentiles in 1940 joined the Anders Army and when it arrived in Palestine the Polish gentile leadership turned a blind eye to Polish Jewish desertion (with a view to Polish Jews wanting to form the Jewish State). I'm slowly forming the opinion that the Soviets accused them of being Nationalists (ie neo-fascists) and inflated any anti-Semitism there may have been among them. But for this theory to fly, I first need to take a look at the evidence of AK anti-semitism. Thanks in advance. Banjojojo (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Animal Rights

Hello, thanks for your comment. Please take a look at my reply on the animal rights talk page, I hope this clears up the issue! Sorry for any problems caused...

OK, I'll add something there too (see my next comment, below) --~

At the moment, the list is billed as Further Reading as opposed to references. Should the books belong in the references section? Are all of them equally notable? As per my other comment on the talk page the section needs clean up but, given the fact I am unfamilier with any of the works or sites, I am not the person to do this.

Thanks for you time! michaelCurtis ^talk+ _{contributions} 10:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand the distinction, "References" are citations of works used by the article's authors, "Further reading" lists other pertinent published works, and "External links" lists Web material (sites, publications, etc.).

I'm unfamiliar with the citations in the article, but will add a suggestion (ad lib, not having checked this out with the Wikipedia Manual of Style) that the Further reading be subsectioned into Books and Articles. That might accomplish part of what you've suggested. -- Cheers, Deborahjay 11:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (noted at User's talk) page

Hebrew and Yiddish

Greetings...you are correct that Yiddish is a simple redirect to Yiddish language, but Hebrew is a disambiguation page, not a redirect... What I was doing was disambiguating Hebrew and bypassing the redirect to Yiddish_language. If you take a look at my contribs at the time, you'll find I did a lot of language disambiguation and redirect bypassing from language-name to language-name_language. One of my designated "chores" on WP is keeping things from pointing to _Hebrew_ that shouldn't, and the other language disambiguations and redirect bypassings were just beneficiaries of my dedication to making readers' experiences on WP less frustrating and to reducing the load on the wikimedia servers. I hope that clears up any potential misunderstandings. :*) Shabath shalom. Tomer^talk 23:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops...forgot to address your question about bots. No, I don't use a bot. I go through the list of articles that link to _Hebrew one by one, and look for the context of what the link is talking about in order to make a determination of whether the link should be to the disambig page, or to [Hebrews], [Hebrew language], [Hebrew literature], [Hebrew Bible], [Jew], etc. Cheers, Tomer^talk 23:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Tomer, I'm glad I asked, because along with your helpful explanations, you've given me a lot of insight into your activities on this topic, and thus a chance to express my appreciation to you :-)

What I mentioned previously in our discussion regarding the use of these terms, that it's heightened my awareness of careful usage in writing inline text, has already proved its worth: earlier this evening I opened an account in the Norwegian Wikipedia to discuss a pair of articles in our respective languages, and found my discussion with several users involved reference to, guess what, Hebrew and Yiddish (!). I also had the satisfaction of discovering I can make out a few words here and there in "Nynorsk" (of whose existence I was hitherto entirely unaware!) Everything I do here is so enriching... Thanks again for being part of it! Shabbat shalom, Deborahjay 23:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Further reading vs. External links

Thanks so much for your treatment of listing the supportive and collateral material for the Sachsenhausen concentration camp article. I wasn't familiar with how to do this, and have the following points to clarify, if you would please address them:

1. External link as a Reference -- I hadn't thought to do this, but it makes sense if that's the source from which the article's content derives. Do I understand correctly, then, that a reference need not be a print source?
2. If external links are listed under Further Reading (which I'd thought was only for printed matter, e.g. books and journal articles), what's the use I've seen elsewhere of a heading for External links?

I'll ask at New Contributors' Help] about where I can find explanations of the use of these headings, but would like to have your thoughts on the matter in the case at hand, i.e. this article. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 22:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure. I have cut and pasted your questions here so that I can see them, but I have altered them slightly so they are numbered rather than bullet pointed.

1. See WP:CITE#Further reading/external links. Yes it does not need to be a printed source, But you also need to read WP:V and WP:RS and WP:FOOT for more details on this.
2. Personally I think that if one combines "Further reading" (BTW see WP:MOS#Headings, the second word should be lower case), then one should make the effort to extract the author, the source eg "Wasington Post" and the date from the URL and place in on the line. See the article Depleted uranium for an example of what I mean. As you can see from the WP:CITE section above there is no real agreement on this. There is also the possibility of using the heading Bibliography for books, and footnotes, but some do not like this arangement. As always you can see this type of think being debated on the talk pages for example see Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/archive2#References title misread as non-web External links.

BTW WP:CITE is a short cut for Wikipedia:Citing sources, if you look to the right of the Table of Contents (TOC) on commonly mentioned policy and guideline pages you will often see a short cut name, and these are often used by editors on the talk pages eg "NPOV" is a short cut name for Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

I hope this was of some use to you. As you can see, if you do not like a Wikipedia guidline or a policy you can always edit them. But unless you get a wikipedia:consensus on the talk page first, it is likely to be reverted. Regards Philip Baird Shearer 23:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Headings explanation - thanks!

You're very welcome - I'm glad the link helped! And feel free to let me know if you have any other questions. -- Natalya 12:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Help on Bulgarian Jewry

I've added the article to my watchlist, so I could follow your work and assist you. I haven't ever been to Israel, though I hope I'd one day visit the country and see the memorial and the museum. I appreciate all the nice words about my people and this heroic act — it's one of those things that makes me proud to be Bulgarian! Todor→Bozhinov 10:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The cats

Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad to help– it's always nice to see new articles, and especially those that expand on information available in other languages; it's certainly good to have translators on board! I usually do try to add cats to articles; without them they look a bit shoeless to me. It's a little bit of an esoteric system, but it's the only real form of organization we have here.--Pharos 22:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Links to FL Wikipedia main pages

I created a subpage with handy links to the foreign language (FL) Wikipedias where I conduct discussions with editors, track my activity, etc. I want each one to go to that FL's Main Page, but it appears I'm not writing the internal link properly. What's strange is that German (de) and French (fr) work when I use the respective FL's name for its Main Page, but the others only go to the Wikipedia page for that FL. I've tried several variants, e.g. tweaking the capitalization and using the proper FL diacritics, but no success. I'd appreciate an explanation of what I'm doing wrong and how to correct this. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 04:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

try putting the links in this form [http://en.wikipedia.org Wikipedia main page]

that will look like this... Wikipedia main page

If that does not work put the {{helpme}} back up Eagle talk 04:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Eagle -- the external link does work, just as you suggested.
However, I'm still interested in learning how to write the internal links to perform as I wish. Working between languages as much as I do (most of which I don't speak, thus rely on English as a lingua franca), I have to write many such internal links to pages, to facilitate communications with the FL editors. So I seek a better understanding of the syntax, which up till now I've acquired mostly empirically (i.e. haphazardly). Perhaps there's some explanatory page that provides guidance on working between FL versions of Wikipedia? (I'd thought this might be what's termed Interwiki, but apparently I lack even the nomenclature for what I'm trying to do!) Thanks again, Deborahjay 05:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are on their wiki, use the [[stuff]] as normal. On this wiki just use those for now... I will get help for you :) Eagle talk 05:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Końskowola

Hello, I see that you are interesting about Jewish history, included in Poland. See article which i've created, if you can, expand it, please. I'm seeking any info about ghetto and murders in Końskowola, for writing an article about it for anniversary of this city. After, if you want, you can also to translate this article into he-wiki, I think that many people can seek infos abou it. For pay for it, I can translate something for you into pl-wiki from en-wiki. Bocianski 22:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Mofet

I think this article could do with some expert help from you(!) --Dweller 11:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just checking in

Truthfully, 'procrastinating'! <g> (I've some RL stuff I should get to doing.) Just thought I'd see how you were doing, and if you needed any help. I see Phillip Baird Shearer is at hand, so that's a big gun helping you navigate 'WikiPerils' indeed. I'm hardly needed! So, Hi and Bye! Best regards // FrankB 16:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks....

Uhhh...Thanks for fixing the external link on the Janowska page. I didn't really know that there actually was an article on it in the ushmm website until I went there. I thought that since it wasn't a major concentration camp, there would not be an article or info for it. Thanks again... although you kinda scared me a bit when you sent me that comment because it sounds like you were mad. lol. Lee-Lee 22:02, 28 June 2006 UTC

Icchak Cukierman

The article's history shows an edit of yours in August 2005, performing a Move from Yitzhak Zuckerman to the Polish spelling of his name. What I didn't see was any explanation. What was the justification? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 13:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I moved the article to Cukierman, because that was his name, which he himself used when writing in Latin alphabet. Zuckerman is an anglicisation (not even a proper transcription) of its Hebrew form. · Naive cynic · 10:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed the Polish spelling of his name, as he was born in Poland and used that name there among Poles -- until his early abandonment of that country, emigrating as a Holocaust survivor and Zionist activist. The fact is that he was a Polish Jew whose primary languages even while living in Poland were Yiddish and then Hebrew. He was known to use the Polish language (and poorly, at that), far, far less than his native and acquired Jewish languages. I don't see that his Polish birthplace, and having lived in Poland during his childhood and youth, substantiates the continued use of the "authentic" Polish spelling for his entry in the English-language Wikipedia.

The so-called "anglicisation" to which you object, rather than a strict transcription or transliteration from Hebrew, is probably the most widely accepted form of both his surname and first name. As such, the name "Yitzhak Zuckerman" has been adopted by major English-language reference works and publishers, as I've noted in the article's Discussion page, and I believe it should be used here too. -- Deborahjay 11:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not really going to fight over such an issue, especially since it is somewhat a border case - you are free to move it back, if you feel that it would better reflect the article naming policies, please just mention in the article what his real name was. I do, however, consider it a bit silly to use Latin semi-transcription of Hebrew transcription of a surname that was originally written in the Latin script. Imagine someone writing about you in, say, French, using a transcription of ג'יי as your surname, just because you are a Jew and moved to Israel, without regard to spelling that you yourself use. · Naive cynic · 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation

Deborahjay, my friend, can I ask you for translation Końskowola to Hebrew language another one time?Yoy didn't answer in this topic. Maybe there are some people which want to learn about Końskowola in this language. For pay for it, I can translate something for you to pl-wiki from en-wiki. My active language isn't very good, but understanding is ok, so don't worry :) If you want, do same with Chrząchów and Kurówka River, those article are related, but this isn't so important. Anyway, you helped me so much... Best regard, Bocianski 06:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't usually translate into Hebrew, I must thank you one more time. I know, that many people asking for translations only for their whims. But this was, I think, very special request. If you have any problems with Polish topic, or if you want translate something into Polish, ask me. Best regard, Bocianski 08:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for helping me out in the Mofet and Hakfar Hayarok articles, I really appreciate it.

Michaelas10 08:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Linking years

Years in isolation should usually not be made a wikilink, unless there is a specific relevance of that year. The reason month-day-year is wikilinked is so that it displays according to user's preference settings. (Check out your own preference page.) Tyrenius 06:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying to my question on formatting citations. Just to confirm my understanding: you remarked: "Years in isolation should usually not be made a wikilink, unless there is a specific relevance of that year." My particular question was about using an internal link for the publication year in a References or Further reading citation. I've seen this format serving to highlight the year; is that to be considered a superfluous, hence inappropriate, usage? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 04:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As a default, do not link the individual year in those cases. Tyrenius 15:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Check out WP:DATE and WP:MOS, also WP:FA for best practice, although variation is built-in to allow for multiple editing. Perfection is not expected, especially in the early stages of editing. You might be interested in some wiki art projects which are listed on my user page. Tyrenius 15:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Greek transliteration

Check my user page:   Andreas   ^(T) 14:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Chaike Grossman, Paul Ben-Haim, et al

Yes, the Hebrew name must be included, especially because she's Israeli. The problem is that if I add it myself from the Web browser I'm using, it could screw up the article's bidirectionality (please see Paul Ben-Haim and you'll understand what I mean). So if you know how to put it in while maintaining correct text bidirectionaly, please go ahead. I might learn something, too. Robert Happelberg 22:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Jewish partisans

Shavua tov! Great job. I wasn't going to work on that either, but I noticed a gaping hole in the {{The Holocaust}} template and the article Soviet partisans did't really cover it. Before too late, I've added it to Template_talk:Did_you_know#July_7. Please improve as you see fit. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 06:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC) Hi, Just to note you I have put some extensive quotes from book about Polish-soviet partisan war in Nowogrodek region relating to Jewish partisans. Since until 1989 official version wass that Soviet partisans were heroes, I doubt there are any similar texts in the west, since only in last 15 years historians can write books about such controversial topics. Hope you will enjoy the reading. I will prepare the paragraphs reflecting the POV in the book later Szopen 10:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject

Hey Deborah, thanks for the welcome. I look forward to working with you too. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Eintracht Frankfurt

Hi,Deborahjay! As seen on your profile you can speak in iwrit. My request: Can you have a look over he:איינטרכט פרנקפורט, the hebrew article for Eintracht Frankfurt? I've made a lot of articles in foreign languages but that right-sided writing system drives me maaaad!;-) Thank you!-Lemmy- 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply (negative) on User page. --Deborahjay 08:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation Request

Greetings Deborahjay!

Can you please kindly help me translate this passage into Hebrew?

"The Holy Communion is the sacrament to commemorate the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It enables us to partake of the flesh and blood of our Lord and to be in communion with Him so that we can have eternal life and be raised on the Last Day. The church believes that sacrament should be held as often as possible. They also believe, according to the Bible, that only one unleavened bread and grape juice is to be used".

Any help at all would be very gratefully appreciated, Thankyou very much. --Phillip J 04:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply (discussion) on User page. Deborahjay 05:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I have now made the passage less authoritative.

I understand how difficult it is for you to help me - especially in the current circumstances.......however, can you help me translate that passage after that terrible conflict has stopped and after you have stopped living as a refugee? Please. --Phillip J 06:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

<< Request removed per User:Phillip J 19 August 2006 >>

I sincerely apologize for my actions; I removed it from your talk page because someone else had already fufilled my request. --Phillip J 22:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Translating

Thought you'd be interested to see this. Hope your home, and more importantly, loved ones, stay intact during the current nastiness. --Dweller 09:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

Anytime I see a page that is marked {{uncategorized}}, I try to find appropriate categories for the page. It is small maintainence, but it helps keep the site organized. If you have any more pages that need to be categorized, either let me know or use the tag above. --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 20:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Proposal

Hi, I am posting this message to everyone who has edited on animal rights or animal welfare related articles in the last couple of months. I have just created a proposal for a WikiProject to help co-ordinate editors on the many articles under the mentioned subjects. If you would like to find out about it or show your support for such a project, please visit User:Localzuk/Animal Rights Proposal and Wikipedia:WikiProject/List of proposed projects#WikiProject Animal Rights and Welfare. Cheers, Localzuk ^(talk) 10:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

שלום דבורה

אני מבקש להפנות את תשומת ליבך לכך שמתקפת השואה בויקיפדיה העברית החלה. אשמח אם תוכלי לסייע בעדנו במפעל חשוב זה.

David Grossman

Bonjour,

The article on the french Wikipedia is now available. I've just created the link before the article ! FYI, a very good paper in the french newspaper Le Monde today with the full "good-by speech" of David Grossman to his son. TCY 22:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments (on Herbert Kappler)

Hi, regarding your comments on my talk page, it will not be advisable to edit copyrighted text. The right way is to get it deleted and then rewrite the article. Maybe you could just post a scan of the page you are talking about. That should convince the deleting admin -- Lost^(talk) 19:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is unfortunately getting beyond my response capabilities at present. I'll take some steps and bear your advice in mind along the way. What a hassle! But I appreciate that there are issues involved that rightly dictate what we're doing here. Thanks for enlightening me... -- Cheers, Deborahjay 19:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

StraussElite

I had trouble translating some of the sentences from the Hebrew article about StraussElite to the English one. Could you help me out? Michaelas10 10:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the copyediting. As I can see it now, the problems are solved. Michaelas10 11:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Here, have a cookie for your efforts.

Answer

Off course, you are free to do that. Alexzr88 11:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Mayor of Vienna Question

Your Answer: Helmut Zilk. Enjoy! -newkai t-c 15:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Kali Gandaki valley

You're very welcome. And thank you too - I enjoy questions that teach me something new. A further thought: the capital of Mustang, Lo-Manthang, might have different name in another local language. One more thought: the source is close to the border of Tibet, so, if the script is copied from a map, it could conceivably even be the country 'Nepal', as often near borders on maps. I noticed this valley is popular for white water sports and trekking, so I assume it should be documented somewhere. Good luck and cheers! ---Sluzzelin 14:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

About Bulgarian Jewry

Dear Deborahjay, I'll be thankful to see your article about Bulgarian Jewry and the rescue of the community in WWII. Especially if it could be sourced with specialized literature and external links. I'm afraid it is hard to find detailed information about these problems not only here, in English Wikipedia, but also on the internet at all. Best wishes, Jackanapes 13:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking out for me.

That mispelling was a bit embarrassing and I never would have noticed. I appreciate that.

And I also appreciate your thank-you on the my talk page. Thanks all around! Lowerarchy 03:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi, Deborah. I just wanted to thank you for your kind words on my talk page. It's nice to have a Holocaust specialist somewhere around. We have such entries as Ukrainian Holocaust that always need an expert to look after them. Please keep your good work in the project! --Ghirla ^-трёп- 19:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Adum

Just to let you know that I posted an answer to your question here. Out of curiosity, why'd you ask? Cheers, — mark ✎ 20:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(replied at Mark's Talk page)

Re: Santa Fe pants enquiry

No worries! Natgoo 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Rivka

Hi Deborah,

My parents attend a Reform temple, and they have changed the Avot to mention the matriarchs as well as Abe, Izzy and Jake. When the cantor sings that part, I hear "Reevka." But I may just be hearing it wrong. If I've made a mistake, please correct it where I wrote it. Thanks -- Mwalcoff 23:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

(replied at Mwalcoff's User page -- Deborahjay 00:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fukuyama (City)

Japanese has a rigid hierarchy of bureaucratic suffixes attached to municipalities (prefecture > county > city > town > village and so on - there might be more). You could argue (and you've probably seen it argued) that a correct English translation does/doesn't should/shouldn't must/mustn't include the suffix, but as someone who makes his living translating Japanese, I'd say leave the "city" off. There are plenty of examples in English of Japanese city names without the "city" (Hiroshima, Kyoto, Osaka, Sapporo, etc.) so it shouldn't throw your reader off (and that's who you're translating for, after all). You'll probably want to introduce the name by saying something like "Fukuyama, a city in Hiroshima Prefecture..." so the reader knows you're talking about a city and not another prefecture.

That said, you should probably always include "prefecture" (capitalized, of course) after the name of a prefecture, in order to avoid confusion, since a lot of prefectures have eponymous capitals (e.g., Hiroshima). Madler 12:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: How to do this properly?

Convention has that most metacomments posted on the desks are subject to immediate (speedy) deletion by any editor, and whole sections of commentary certainly qualify. However, it's unusual for it to be deleted outright- usually an editor experienced enough to confidently take initiative and clean stuff up is also nice enough to archive the discussion. Create a new subpage under the RD talk page and just cut-and-paste the metacomments into the new page, and you should probably leave a little blurb like...

This section was [[/SUBPAGE#BLAH|moved]] because it belongs in talk space

...underneath each section header that you moved. There's probably some template somewhere, but it's really just a courtesy, no need to worry. --froth^{T C} 04:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays Deborahjay! | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 01:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

May you and your family have a Merry Christmas, as well as any other Holiday you may celebrate. I hope that warmth, good cheer, and love surround you during these special days. May God bless you during the Holidays. | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 01:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

File:Julekort.jpg

.

RD

Don't remove other people's comments from RD pages. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

You restored the question and restored certain replies, but not all of them. What criteria did you use as to which answers were, in your opinion, worth keeping? User:Zoe|(talk) 19:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

As was clear from my follouwp question, my question was entirely in good faith, as is obviously apparent. I will repeat: Don't delete other people's comments. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The debates at the reference desk haven't been very friendly these past weeks, and one of the bones of contention is the deletion of posts. Parts of the community have become polarized and antagonistic over this, for many reasons, which we don't want to explore here. Please don't get upset over this particular removal, or over each other, Deborah and Zoe, your help at the desks is so valuable, and you were both so obviously acting in the best of faith. Sorry for butting in, and Happy Holidays! ---Sluzzelin 20:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, you mustn't apologize for your kind and considerate effort at conciliation, and you have my sincere thanks. Unfortunately, I was and remain upset by Zoe's contentions and manner of expression, especially as they were unexpected. I'm keeping your encouraging words in mind, though, and hope I can develop more resilience in the future. Be assured that I'm committed to what we do on Wikipedia and believe I'll find the way to refine my process and continue contributing. :-) Deborahjay 02:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And I am upset at being called a troll. User:Zoe|(talk) 16:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

You've made it quite clear that you're upset, and more. Whether or not you were actually "called a troll," and other issues related to our respective editing on the query in contention, has been discussed extensively by our fellow editors. While I'm awaiting further enlightenment there, I'll note this: based on what I've seen you write, your understanding of such WP terms as troll, vandalism, and good faith is seriously flawed. Or perhaps you do understand according to the consensus, but irregardless opt to act in what one might call, what's that again, the complete opposite of good faith. I don't call you a troll, Zoe, but evidently you're a bully, and quite possibly an irresponsible editor. You and your comments are not welcome on my Talk page. -- Deborahjay 11:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: the AIDS thread (response to your post on the RD talk page)

Hi, Deborahjay; I'm responding here cuz it's really more of a personal communication.

Sorry for seeming to put words in your mouth or commit you to a course of action; in my experience of WP, sometimes the best solution to a situation is just to say, 'I'm sorry for any upset my good faith actions inadvertently caused'. It's not an admission of guilt or a way to let other people off the hook, but it's a recognition that hurt feelings and misunderstandings are often the biggest (or only) hinderance to a good collaborative process. To clarify my position further (with apologies to other editors), I didn't take into consideration the content or appropriateness of the responses you didn't include in your restored version of the thread; my action had been to delete the whole thing, I was willing to defend that action, and in approving of your alternate solution, I considered myself to be handing over the responsibility for defending the action to you. I have no opinion about whether or not your judgement was correct in retaining certain responses while leaving others out; that is your row to hoe. ;-)

I basically sought to know whether it was all right to do a selective restore, which de facto involves some material being omitted, including other editors' good faith comments to trollish content. I thought it would be sufficient to note this on the RD Talk page for the benefit of anyone wanting to know my rationale.

In other words, I was approving of your action (restoring what you believed to be useful content), but I wasn't approving (or disapproving) of your version. It's regrettable that Zoe characterised your good faith actions as 'vandalism', but that is evidence of the way things have been going on the RD lately. If you wish to pursue the unfounded accusation formally I'd be happy to give you guidance, but since my solution was to delete the whole thread (and I stand by my belief that it was the best solution), I don't feel comfortable getting involved in the dispute between you and Zoe.

I'd read your approval of my version not necessarily as having evaluated the decisions of each comment's content, but as a tacit confirmation that a selective restore is acceptable WP practice in these circumstances. I still haven't found, nor has anyone provided me the WP guidelines, whether it's explicitly forbidden to "delete others' comments" under any circumstances.

I'm really, really sorry this happened to you, and I hope it doesn't put you off contributing. The RD is a minefield right now, tempers are high, skins are thin, and there's a lot of assumption of bad faith floating around. You've clearly gotten on the wrong end of it through your entirely good faith actions, and that sucks (same exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago, I was pilloried by an experienced RD editor for my good-faith actions). My personal opinion is that Zoe owes you an apology for calling your edit vandalism (although it was really me because I was the one who deleted the thread), but I've realised that in RD land there is nothing to be gained from expecting apologies. And... just saying you're sorry for leaving Zoe off the dancecard so to speak might do a lot to mend what's broken. But it's just friendly advice, not trying to make you feel like you need to do anything.

I greatly appreciate your replying here and sharing these insights from your experience, especially in helping me realize how subjective all this can get. Really, I was naive to think (hope?) otherwise. The best I can do to recoup what this cost me in time and hard feelings is to learn from the experience - so thank you for helping me understand it.

Best wishes, I hope to see you back with more good contributions. Anchoress 15:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I came to help out on RD queries because of the help I've been given there on some esoteric questions of my own, as I'm a sworn practicioner of "paying back/forward." I've concluded it would best, at least for now, that I just provide replies without getting involved in editing disputes on the RD Talk page. It's pretty sure that before long I'll be back there too, as with my experience on Web forums (including as a moderator of several) I've got something to contribute -- only after I've bolstered my resilience and equanimity (i.e. grown a thicker skin?). Thanks again, and C U! -- Deborahjay 04:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)