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Jacques Offenbach[edit]

Jacques Offenbach (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 30 April 2024, 03:31 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 19:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Together with marvellous colleagues I've got numerous French composers to FA and I hope the time has come to get Offenbach to join them. He's known to the world at large for the can-can, but is notable for much, much more. As always at FAC, comments, quibbles and recommendations for improvements will be welcomed. Tim riley talk 19:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

Just a placeholder as yet.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Offenbach quietly shifted the emphasis of his work from being a cellist who also composed to being a composer who played the cello.[43]" I would suggest adding an "also" after the second "who" to increase the parallelism.
  • "The Champs-Élysées in 1855 were not yet the grand avenue laid out by Baron Haussmann in the 1860s, but an unpaved allée" Are we sure on the paving? this, though perhaps not the highest quality source, seems to contradict.
  • Faris is unequivocal: "The site was on the Champs-Elysées (Baron Haussmann had not yet redeveloped Paris, and the present avenue des Champs-Elysées was an allée, planted but unpaved)". Even today you can get your shoes very mucky walking down that part of the Champs-Elysées when going to lunch at e.g. Ledoyen. Tim riley talk 15:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the Tuileries palace" Even with the decapitalisation craze, this one has survived, at least according to the article title. Perhaps the storming has not yet recurred.
  • "(ostensibly to Roman mythology but in reality to Napoleon and his government, generally seen as the targets of its satire)" This is a rather long parenthetical and perhaps should be put in plain prose. Also, did Janin mistake the target of the work, and was annoyed at how Roman gods were portrayed, or was he outraged because of the irreverence toward the Emperor?
  • Redrawn. It is clear that Janin was genuinely shocked at the treatment of the gods of classical literature. I don't know that he was all that keen on the emperor: his paper had liberal leanings. Tim riley talk 15:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look forward to it. Thanks for the above so far. Tim riley talk 15:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " but has not subsequently been revived as often as Offenbach's best-known operettas.[111]" Perhaps simplify to "but has been revived less often than Offenbach's best-known operettas".
  • Should the lyrics for the quintet for the kings be in italics? Also other lyrics.
  • I'm seeking expert advice on this. I think probably not, but shall await further input. Tim riley talk 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Offenbach often composed amidst noise and distractions." It's unclear what this means as the rest of the paragraph doesn't touch on it. Are these the normal noises and distractions one would expect from family life in a large city? If that's all, is it worth mentioning?
  • Probably not. I suppose the idea was to emphasise that Offenbach was anything but an ivory tower composer, but you're right: it doesn't add much, and I've zapped it. Tim riley talk 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wagner, ignoring Berlioz, retaliated by writing some unflattering verses about Offenbach" Are we talking about correspondence or something more public?
  • The latter I'm pretty sure – Wagner wasn't one to keep his thoughts private – but the source doesn't actually say. Tim riley talk 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Largo al factotum" consider a link.
  • Done. (Never crossed my mind that a single number from The Barber might have its own article.) Tim riley talk 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most grateful, Wehwalt. Warmest thanks for your input. Tim riley talk 12:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Enjoyable read.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:Offenbach-mentors.jpg needs a US tag, as do all of its source files
    • Serves me right for relying on Commons! I should know better by now. All PD old. Replaced image with new one duly tagged (I hope) Tim riley talk 09:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Young_Offenbach.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag
  • Doesn't look like any changes have been made on this one? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some genius has moved the image from Wikipedia to Commons since yesterday, omitting the tag you ask for. It had the wp:old tag when in the former. I do not know how to add a US tag to a Commons file.
  • File:Bouffes-Parisiens.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Hortense-Schneider-cropped.jpg, File:Offenbach_and_son_Auguste.jpg, File:Offenbach-by-André-Gill.jpg, File:Punch_-_Offenbach_elegy.png
    • Replaced the Bouffes-Parisiens and Schneider image and blitzed the Punch image (as discussed on the article talk page); the others now tagged. Tim riley talk 09:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Halevy-Meilhac-Strauss-Sullivan.jpg: second source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Replaced. Thank you, as ever, Nikkimaria, for your sharp eye. I hope all is now tickety-boo. Tim riley talk 09:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Afterthought: Nikkimaria, I have replaced the Punch image with an 1860s photo of Offenbach. Would you mind checking that out as well? Tim riley talk 10:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Contes-d'Hoffmann-1881.jpg is tagged as missing author info.
  • File:Offenbach_and_Strauss.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed. Talk page discussion favours removal in any case. Tim riley talk 07:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • "As he was by then the permanent cantor of the local synagogue, Isaac could". Optional: 'As Isaac was by then the permanent cantor of the local synagogue, he could'.
  • The very last sentence of Early years needs a citation.
  • It has two – in the footnote. Seems OTT to duplicate them in the main text. Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The usual convention is to cite the text rather than have a reader chase citations in a footnote in the hope that one of them also gives the main article source. (It never occurred to me that that might be the case here.) If this causes a perceived redundancy, so be it. On a similar note "a play on words loosely translated as "I am certainly the Father, but each of them is my Son and Wholly Spirited" " ends with a footnote but neither it nor the main text are cited.
OK. Belt and braces it shall be. As to the explanation of the French pun, it is mine, I think. If you decree that it must be blitzed if uncited I shall comply, but it might leave the non-Francophone reader puzzled. Tim riley talk 12:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. The MoS says "Quotations from foreign-language sources should appear with a translation into English, preferably a modern one." It does allow the possibility of "When editors themselves translate foreign text into English" but makes no suggestions as to how to cite this. Lacking a translation in a source(?) I am personally happy to not cite it on a 'sky is blue' basis.
  • "he and the principal cellist played alternate notes of the printed score". Sheer brilliance! :-)
  • Between 1835 and 1844 the narrative is date free. Any chance of inserting one or two? Especially towards the start of the paragraph beginning "Among the salons".
  • Is there a link for "programmed", or could you add a brief explanation. I have no idea what it means, other than that it probably isn't the obvious Programming (music). Program music?
  • This comment surprised me. The first definition of the verb in Chambers is "to include something in a programme; to schedule". I think WP:OVERLINK would prevent our linking such an everyday term to Wiktionary. I've changed to "played", which I'm not wild about, but is the verb used in the source (infelicitously in my view as conductors don't play anything themselves). Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the comtesse de Vaux's 200 guests". Should that be an upper-case C?
  • Not in French usage. French capitalisation is expressly designed to confuse the innocent Anglo-Saxon. Tim riley talk 08:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It succeeds. I am unconvinced of the relevance of French usage in an English-language article, but let it pass.
I suppose we could call her the Countess de Vaux, if you want it in English, but she's comtesse in all the English sources as well as the French ones. Tim riley talk 12:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to be Nelsonian about this case.
  • "which had opened the previous year". The year previous to when?

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "shortly after the first performance of the Mozart piece". I am not sure that the last four words are necessary.
  • "gained much popularity where the duet of the two gendarmes became a favourite number in England and France". This doesn't quite work for me grammatically. (I think it is your use of "where" that is throwing me off.) Gog the Mild (talk) 12:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I perpetrated this, though I should have spotted it. Now tweaked. Tim riley talk 12:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prussia's crushing victory at Sedan (1870)". Perhaps 'at Sedan in September' or 'at Sedan that September'? Gog the Mild (talk) 23:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "from the decade have remained among his best known". Minor suggestion "the" → 'this'?
  • "working on lines agreed with him." Lines as in the words in the script (learning ones lines) or as working under Offenbach's direction (working along the same lines)?
  • Any particular reason for using ; rather than the more usual section headers?
  • Not sure about that. I don't know if it will help more readers than it irritates. They may reasonably expect to be taken to an article on Offenbach's Ave Maria rather than the non-musical RC prayer. Tim riley talk 15:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the text read 'The Ave Maria', with Ave Maria either in italics or quote marks, I would take your point. Having no idea what an Ave Maria is, or was(?), I typed it into another window out of interest. It would be nice to spare other readers the bother.
Done. Tim riley talk 16:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Magisterial. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Gog. We had an offline exchange about the "lang" templates, and I'd be glad if you could spare the time to check that they are OK here. Tim riley talk 16:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have added some. It started to get a bit robotic, so I shall return when I am feeling fresher. You will want to check that I haven't broken or mutilated anything. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mention this with trepidation, but shouldn't La Vie parisienne have a lower-case v? And its Wikipedia article be retitled? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer to lower case the Vie, but, as I say above, French capitalisation is expressly designed to have Englishmen sticking straws in their hair: if you can spare five minutes, have a gander at this. Tim riley talk 16:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the International Music Score Library Project, whom one might assume know about such things. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now La vie parisienne following the capitalisation in Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians. Tim riley talk 07:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do née and né need to be in italics? Are they not ordinary English words? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not in my opinion, but remove the italics and wait to see how long it is before someone rushes in to put them back. Fowler (current edition) italicises the word; Chambers doesn't and the OED is all over the place about it. Tim riley talk 17:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:-) It was an open question. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The MoS (at MOS:NEE) says not. - SchroCat (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Draken Bowser[edit]

What a lovely read. I'll attempt a source review this weekend, unless someone beats me to it.

In the meantime:

  • Optional: "Offenbach's (or) the his earnings from his orchestral work enabled him" to avoid his .. his .. him
  • "the government lifted the licensing restrictions on the number of performers"
  • Looks a bit odd to me without the definite article. Tim riley talk 11:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the scores usually performed and recorded were not composed by Offenbach, but were arranged by Carl Binder and Eduard Haensch" - Seems to conflate composing and arranging, could it be made more clear?

Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to start a conflict between reviewers (the process is arduous enough as it is), but I unfortunately can't stomach the rewrite of He thought it politic to revert temporarily to the name Jacob. So I guess I'm gonna have to. :) Draken Bowser (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think is wrong with the revised version? It conforms with the source. Tim riley talk 08:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the new one is ok, I just really liked the phrasing of the old version. Draken Bowser (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Phew! That's a relief. I agree with you, but I think the revised text will do. Thank you for keeping an eye on the continuing review. Tim riley talk 13:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source review[edit]
Spot check

Fotnoote numbers taken from [1] (as of writing equal to current version), source-to-prose comparisons to current version.

  • 8 The move to Cologne is mentioned on p. 13
  • Re-reading my comment I feel like I was trying to be as vague as humanly possible: we need p. 13 to verify the year they moved. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • 66 Check
  • 79 Check
  • 82 Check
  • 98 I think we need p. 39 for Despite problems with the libretto.. For hotchpotch of romantic and mythological themes I'm not sure which page to use. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nor I. It isn't my addition and I'll blitz it if you think fit. Tim riley talk 16:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we need to axe the second one, which is a shame, it's so nicely put. Let's add p. 39 and keep the part about the libretto. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added citations for both statements (Gammond) Tim riley talk 08:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 117 Check
  • 133 I couldn't find his name in the archived version. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not the world's most intuitive website, but he's there if you poke about. I could just quote one of the books, but I think this is more helpful to the reader who wants to follow it up. Tim riley talk 16:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brain catching up with eyes! I've added a book reference to the online one. Tim riley talk 09:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 155 Check - Since footnote 155 cites all three pages, we could remove the second iteration of the note, leaving only the one at the end of the sentence.
  • 157 Check
  • 185 Alter range to 75–77 (includes 1864 and popularity)
  • Done
  • 191 Check
  • 202
    Almeida: the sentence starts with one word on xi, is it customary to include this or not? Debussy is mentioned on page xvii.
  • Faris: I might be confused, but the source does not seem to substantiate the specific claim.
  • Unfortunately Almeida doesn't verify "Bizet", is he mentioned as a fan of Offenbach's in one of the other sources? Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 203 Check
  • 206 "..same kind."
  • Not sure of your meaning. The quote is accurate. Tim riley talk 19:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, I see - it's incomplete. Now completed. Glad you spotted that: thank you. Tim riley talk 20:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My French liaison is unavailable for the next few days, I might re-roll those. Also, is there a way to read The Times through the Wikipedia library – NewspaperARCHIVE.com omits the last century? Draken Bowser (talk) 11:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately not. The Times archives are available online to most users in Britain via their local libraries, but one can't put in a url because each local authority library has its own url access address. Tim riley talk 18:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is: you can access through Gale (https://www-galepages-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/wikipedia, if you have access), - SchroCat (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's worth knowing for future reference, thank you SchroCat. Tim riley talk 19:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great resource, thanks! Added some inquiries regarding 8, 98, 133 and 202. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overall

The selection of book sources seems appropriate and include works from reputable publisher. The shortened footnotes are used consistently and all refer to works listed as sources. Newspaper and magazine sources are used sparingly to add spice. The spot-check revealed only minor issues, mostly about citing this or that page. There was no hint of close paraphrasing. I'm gonna call this a pass. Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your hard work on the source review and for your support. Tim riley talk 17:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Schrocat[edit]

Support. A lovely read that passes all the FA criteria, and then some. Just one rather minor comment from me: you have three montages: in the first you have "Early influences: Luigi Cherubini (l) and Fromental Halévy (top);" in the other two you have "clockwise from top left". Of the two 'clockwise' ones, one is in brackets, the other is not. Is there a rationale behind the three different formats? – SchroCat (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, SchoCat. That's very kind. I agree consistency is wanted, but am not sure which of the three formats to choose. What think you? Tim riley talk 10:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My personal preference would be for the bracketed "clockwise from top left", but that's just a personal view. I don't think the MOS proscribes any particular version in this case. - SchroCat (talk) 10:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me, and done. Thank you. Tim riley talk 16:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from UC[edit]

Resolved
  • Can we give a date for the lead image, even if approximate?
  • The Bibliothèque nationale de France, from where the image comes, gives the publication date (well after Offenbach's death) but not the date it was taken. It was uploaded as from the 1860s, but an IP on the article talk page questioned this, and I concurred. I know which decade I think it's from (the 1870s), but I have no proof. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • in Cologne, Kingdom of Prussia,: something about "Kingdom of Prussia" here reads oddly to me: I think it's that it's the formal/political name rather than the geographic one. Compare "Dublin, Irish Republic": I think we'd more naturally say "Dublin, [then] in the Irish Republic".
  • I think this is all right. We often say things like "Madras, British India". Geographically Cologne is nowhere near Prussia though as a fall-out from the Congress of Vienna (Round 2) Prussia bagged it. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think "Cologne, Prussia" would be as wrong as "Mauritius, France". Happy with this. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • From 1835 to 1855 he earned his living as a cellist, achieving international fame, and as a conductor: do I take the correct implication that he was not famous as a conductor?
  • he produced at least 18 full-length operettas, as well as more one-act pieces: MOS:NUM would probably like "eighteen" in words for consistency (plus, most style guides advise writing numbers under twenty-one in words anyway).
  • I'm all for this and will gladly alter forthwith, but my impression is that most guides go for words up to ten and then digits thereafter. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do we give the title of The Tales of Hoffmann in English but most of the others (e.g. Orphée aux enfers) in French?
  • I should gladly give them all in French, but our WP article uses the English title. So, I admit, does our article on Orphée aux enfers, but usage is more finely balanced for that title, whereas in fifty-odd years of opera-going I have never heard any English speaker speak of "Les contes d'Hoffmann". Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • His works from this period included: I would use the present tense here, as his works from this period still include these things -- the past tense to me implies that the situation changed.
  • Struck off on the 2 December 1834: presumably, this was written in French, which uses the definite article here: English generally doesn't.
  • Not sure that's entirely true, but we can certainly omit the article if wanted. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of Offenbach's early compositions were played by the fashionable conductor Louis Antoine Jullien.: what does played mean in this context -- I'm not sure that conductors generally play music (rather than, well, conducting it), unless he was doing so in his free time?
  • Ha! How funny you add this. Please see my comments on this very point in answer to Gog the Mild above. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to defer to a WP:HQRS here, then. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Offenbach as a young cello virtuoso, drawing by Alexandre Laemlein from 1850: I would use a colon rather than a comma here, as he isn't drawing in the picture.
  • the work was exceptionally well received: to me, exceptionally sets up a high bar, given that it's taken as read that this is going to be a work from the top tier of its genre: I'm not totally convinced that the body text really indicates that its reception was exceptionally positive (that is, remarkable even by the standards of beloved operas).
  • It would be properly described as a smash-hit, but that's a bit informal for the dignified prose of our encyclopaedia. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't disagree, but I'm still not sure the body text is quite as effusive as the lead. I'd be happier if we had some way of comparing it against other very-well-received shows. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first production ran for 228 performances, at a time when a run of 100 nights was considered a success. Albert Lasalle, in his history of the Bouffes-Parisiens (1860), wrote that the piece closed in June 1859 – although it was still performing strongly at the box-office – "because the actors, who could not tire the public, were themselves exhausted". Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant: that first fact in particular would be an excellent addition to the article body. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the article on the opera (I put it there). My feeling is that it's a bit too detailed for the Life-and-Works article, but I am biddable. Tim riley talk 10:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Up to you: my concern here is simply MOS:LEAD, that the phrasing of exceptionally well-received in the lead is not a reflection of what's currently in the body. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very well! Done Tim riley talk 13:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per MOS:NEE, the word should be linked on at least first use: using the template would help here.
  • Strangely I have had, above, a precisely opposite view, contending, rightly I think, that né and née are now good English words. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They might be, but we often explain or link terms that might be unknown to some readers, even if familiar to most. The MoS is pretty clear here: for name changes due to marriage, they may also use née (feminine) and né (masculine) followed by the surname, provided the term is linked at first occurrence. (emphasis mine). I'm not sure I can wear an IAR argument here that's simply "we don't like what the MoS says": as far as I can see, there's no consideration at work here that wouldn't apply to all articles using the term. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Done. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isaac ... needed all his eloquence to persuade Cherubini even to give Jacob an audition: this is nicely written, but feels a bit flowery for me in an encyclopaedia.
  • I'd gladly consider an alternative phrasing if you suggest one. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'd go for something really boring like "Isaac persuaded Cherubini to give Jacob an audition", and then explain, as we have here, why he took persuading. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Done. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The boy's age and nationality were both obstacles to admission: I'm not sure I quite understand the significance of the nationality here, given the footnote that immediately follows, and the fact that Cherubini was quite clearly not French.
  • I don't know if Cherubini himself had French nationality, but the question was whether aspirants who were foreign and under age could be admitted. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but we immediately follow with a footnote saying Yon notes that ... foreign nationality ... was not such an obstacle to enrolment as a student. Either the body text or the footnote seems to be overstating the degree to which nationality was or wasn't a problem. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • the comtesse de Vaux: should she have a link (perhaps an ILL), and even a name?
I was hoping you or your sources would know who she was (beyond the title), but perhaps not. French Wikipedia (whose article on Offenbach seems to be simply a translation of this one) doesn't seem to know or have much for us to work with. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How very flattering if the French WP article is just ours translated! Faris and Harding both mention the comtesse's salons and her support of Offenbach (Harding hints, without substantiating, that her interest in her protégé may have been thought by some to be more than musical) but that's all they say about her. Yon says that she was the sister of one of France's leading notaries, Edme Ernest Foucher, but that's all I can find. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah: that would make her this lady (Sophie née Foucher), who was indeed comtesse de Vaux. If you can read German, there's a bit on her on p45 here. I think at least getting her actual name in would be useful, as many people have held that title and none of them are particularly famous by it (as opposed to, say, Lord Byron -- in most normal cases we'd name e.g. the Prince of Wales in addition to the title). UndercoverClassicist T·C
Read German? Up to a point, Lord Copper. Frightful language, did it up to O-level and vowed never to tangle with it again. But you're right and I'll add her given name to the text. Done, and Schwarz added to sources. Tim riley talk 13:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

12:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Hérminie d'Alcain (1827–1887): per MOS:BIRTHDATE, we shouldn't use people's dates like this in body text: if her age is important, give it and explain. On which -- we haven't been specific on the date of their meeting: it sounds like she might have been twelve, which makes "they fell in love" a little suspect/sanitising to me: a relationship between a twelve-year-old child and a twenty-year-old cannot be simply written up as mutual romance.
  • Another MoS diktat I was unaware of. I'll remove the dates. We don't know when they met, but no source suggests she was as young as you suppose. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've implied at least the possibility, through having this sentence immediately follow Among the salons at which Offenbach most frequently appeared, from 1839,, and precede one about the "early 1840s": it sounds as if he met her circa 1839, when she was circa 12. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After a further trawl through the sources I find that Yon says she was fifteen when they first met. Added. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should Mendelssohn get a first name?
  • I'd say no, any more than Mozart does. Some top creative artists need no full-naming (cf Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni and Dante Alighieri et al.) Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hm: I see the case here, where the person is overwhelmingly known only by the single name (Michelangelo being an excellent example), and a longer name would be less recognisable. I'm less happy when they're simply so famous that most people can recognise them by surname (Einstein, Kennedy, Churchill...) To me, "Felix Mendelssohn" is just as recognisable, if not more so, than "Mendelssohn" (in a way that Michelangelo's full name isn't, or a longer title for Muhammad, Augustus, Madonna etc), and using just the surname on first mention feels as though we're reminding the reader of a mutual friend: in other words, assuming that they have a certain degree/set of prior knowledge, which goes against the general principle of writing for the enthusiastic layperson. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would put this article at odds with the already featured articles on other French composers – Hector Berlioz, Pierre Boulez, Gabriel Fauré, Jules Massenet, André Messager, Francis Poulenc, Maurice Ravel, Camille Saint-Saëns – in which when referring to well-known composers' music the surname alone is generally used. (When the composer as a person is mentioned we usually give the forename, as in the second para of the lead chez Gabriel Fauré.) It is perhaps worth noting that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and Encyclopaedia Britannica, written presumably for enthusiastic laypersons, do much the same as we do in the above articles. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm: I am not entirely happy here, but willing to defer to established practice. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rereading the article I have spotted a few places where it's the chap and not his music we're talking about, and I have added their forenames. Tim riley talk 10:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I realise that the approach to linking here is generally to err on the side of sparseness, but I would certainly link at least Victoria and Albert, and consider linking the titles of the Tsar and the King to the articles on those respective people.
  • Done. We used to have a rule forbidding links from within quotations and the habit has stayed with me. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of "Herr" rather than "Monsieur", : suggest cutting rather than Monsieur, as we don't actually know that this was the (only) other option considered: the paper could just as well have written "Mr.". Perhaps clarify "the German Herr for readers who don't know it as such.
  • Removed Monsieur. As to "Herr" I don't think anyone will need that explaining. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know I've quoted it a lot, but a much-cited essay advises us to assume almost nothing about readers' prior knowledge. Certainly, I find it hard to believe that there will be nobody (thinking here of children, or people from non-European parts of the world) reading this article who doesn't know that Herr is German: the cost of catering to them seems extremely small. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The essay flies in the face of the MoS. I have pointed out above how it urges us to link what the MoS forbids us to link. I hope other editors who happen to see this will comment. As always I'll willingly go with the consensus. Tim riley talk 09:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC) Later: on reflection I think we can accommodate you without mucking up the prose. Done. Tim riley talk 10:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ambiguity of his nationality sometimes caused him difficulty in later life.: I'd like some brief explanation here of the sort of difficulty we mean, or perhaps for this to be delayed until it does cause him some problems.
  • despite some extramarital dalliances on Offenbach's part: Dalliances reads as slightly exculpatory to me.
  • Well, he was a French composer. As far as I can see Bizet was about the only one faithful to his wife. But redrawn. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC) Later: Oh, and Massenet I think, despite gossip. Tim riley talk 10:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 43 (De Joncières): why is quoted in italics?
  • This seems to be a convention, and I've always followed it, but I don't mind either way and would be happy with romic if you prefer. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem if deliberate and consistent. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Paris was convulsed by the 1848 revolution: the prose throughout is sparkly; there have been a few points where I've considered ringing the MOS:IDIOM bell, and this one to me is just on the wrong side of the line (to a second-language reader not familiar with the term, there's a real chance of confusion here). Suggest "the 1848 revolution broke out in Paris".
  • We can. Done. I didn't add the date because by 1858 Offenbach was better known as a composer than as a cellist (the drawing accompanied a potted and somewhat facetious biography of him, and evidently relates to him in the 1840s rather than at the time of publication.) Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The composer Debussy: similar to Mendelssohn above: we've acknowledged that not everyone will know his profession, so we should take that to its logical conclusion and assume that not everyone will know him at all, and therefore give his first name.
  • As above. As we are talking of his corporeal self rather than his music I think it is all right to give him his forename. Done Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A question. I'm working my way through the text converting numbers from digits to words as you suggest for those up to twenty-one, but I'm not sure what to do with this sentence: "the bride was 17 years old, and the bridegroom was 25". What think you? Tim riley talk 10:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    MOS:NUM says to use the same for both, whatever we choose: I'd be happy with either. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's helpful. Thank you. Words, I think. Tim riley talk 11:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could wikilink "satiric" to satire, as the idea is important in the next paragraph?
It's reasonably everyday, but not all of our readers have an "everyday" standard of education or English. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:52, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a pretty muddle-headed article, and completely contradicts our MoS policy at MOS:OL. Linking Paris and France, forsooth! Tim riley talk 09:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps other editors would like to comment on this: I'll gladly go with the consensus. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at MOS:LE (part of MOS:OL), the defining considerations there seem to be twofold:
1) is the term likely to be known by most/all readers in context? The MoS says that the answer is no for "microeconomics" and "general equilibrium theory" in an economics article, and I can't see that readers of a music article are more likely to know about satire than readers of an economics article are to know about macroeconomics.
2) Is it important that readers understand the term in context: see Consider linking "price" and "goods" only if these common words have technical dimensions that are specifically relevant to the topic. Again, here, I think the answer is fairly resolutely "yes": satire does have specific dimensions that are relevant to this topic.
Likewise happy to defer to any consensus that evolves here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added a linked [[satire]] here and then ran the OVERLINK script here: it removed the link. It may not be the perfect way to decide the issue, but it may help in breaking the deadlock... Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh! I'd no idea about such a resource. Thank you, SchroCat. I shall make a note of that script for future reference. Tim riley talk 13:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The script is something of a blunt instrument: from what I can gather, it delinks satire and its forms in all articles, which is explicitly not the point of WP:OL -- the latter is clear that whether a term should be linked depends on the context and article that it's in. I think I've said my piece on this one: it's very far from an opposing matter, and like all things at FAC fundamentally a suggestion. You have often been kind enough with my articles to end on "I'd do it differently, but I'm me and you're you", and I'm more than happy to do the same here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it is very clearly MOS:OVERLINKing. I agree that "The Pope is Catholic" essay is very wrongheaded. All English speakers know generally what France and Paris are. Satire is a common English word, especially for anyone reading a biography in the arts. You don't have to be an expert on the intricacies of satire to have a general sense of the word, and linking to it does not shed any light at all on how Offenbach's pieces used satire, as opposed to, say Mark Twain or George Orwell did. That is really the main question for a blue-link: does it shed useful light on the topic, or is it actually a distraction from it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know that the 1848 uprisings all over Europe were the reason for his reverting to his original given name. It may have been simply a matter of fitting in. The sources don't say. Tim riley talk 08:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't necessarily mean that we should be so specific: only that it's relevant that the Cologne to which he escaped revolutionary Paris was itself a place undergoing upheaval at the time. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's right enough. This is from Gammond: "Finding Cologne very little less inflamed by revolutionary passions than Paris, though not so violently manifested, Offenbach changed his christian name back to Jakob and tried to behave like a good Colognial German. He composed some patriotic German songs, of very little artistic value, for use at various political occasions and he played the cello ... at a concert given in celebration of Cologne Cathedral's six-hundredth anniversary." But I'm not sure it is within the scope of this article to mention the political conditions in Cologne as there is no proof that they were why he changed his name. Tim riley talk 10:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but Gammond at least has made an explicit link between the conditions in Cologne (not just Paris) and the name change; we've only linked it to what happened in Paris, so I think we should follow suit for WP:TSI. I also think the turn towards patriotic German music is very relevant in the context of an ongoing nationalist revolution, and both of those parts should be briefly mentioned. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Perhaps you'd suggest some wording that would satisfy you. Tim riley talk 14:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is quite a lot for me to suggest, and please do take your scalpel to it: your prose is far more elegant than mine. But perhaps something like Cologne was also experiencing its own nationalistic revolutionary upheaval; Offenbach changed his name back to the German "Jakob" [I would use the German spelling here, rather than "Jacob", as Gammond does]. He also composed German patriotic songs, which were sung at political events. Whether you include Gammond's negative judgement on those songs is a matter of taste, I think. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've given it a go. Tricky to get the flavour right. See what you think. Tim riley talk 19:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ludovic was a respectable civil servant: the word respectable makes me think WP:PUFFERY and worry about editorialising: on what are we basing it?
  • As the retired Librarian of the Crown Estate I contend that all civil servants are respectable. But seriously, I think the point is made by the noted fact that Halévy discreetly used pseudonyms from time to time. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's partly my point: what I think we're saying is that civil servants, by nature, were not generally to be seen writing light opera. Using the adjective, however, implies that Ludovic was a respectable civil servant in contrast to the disreputable ones, and that this distinction was the important thing. Does the source say something to the effect of "as a civil servant, Ludovic did not want to be identified?" UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Halévy wrote the libretto for one of the pieces in the opening programme: do we know its name?
  • I could find out, but I don't think it notable. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aged 22, when she auditioned for him, she was engaged on the spot: perhaps consider hired or similar: I briefly thought that someone proposed to her!
  • Oh dear! A generational difference. I hate "hired" but will replace the - to me - natural "engaged" if you insist. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a big problem, but is there an alternative that's both accurate and palatable? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"...given the part on the spot"? I don't think "engaged" is confusing here, though, and to my ear "hired" seems a little more appropriate for a salesperson than an artiste.... -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That suggestion sounds good to me. UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's been a long while since we mentioned Flotow; I'd give his first name again, and perhaps reintroduce his connection with Offenbach.
  • Do you mean in the Orphée section? I don't think so. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was granted French citizenship by the personal command of Napoleon: the Napoleon is so famous mononymously that I'd give the numeral here.
  • Now given his III throughout. Tim riley talk 10:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Tangentially, as a collector of tongue twisters I am grateful for "mononymously", which gives "sphygmomanometer" a run for its money. Tim riley talk 10:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • a chevalier of the Légion d'Honneur: I know it's the "proper" title, but as this is the English Wikipedia, any reason not to use the standard translation of "knight"?
  • I don't think chevalier and knight are exact synonyms. In English, knight sounds rather posh but in French it is the lowest order of the Légion d'honneur.
I personally know a chevalier of the Légion d'Honneur, and he most certainly would not want us to translate it in his article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • this appointment scandalised those haughty and exclusive members of the musical establishment who resented such an honour for a composer of popular light opera: is haughty quite NPOV? Presumably these people had what felt to them legitimate reasons for their resentment. We can always say "those whom Faris has called..." if we want to report the opinion without throwing the authority of Wikivoice behind it.
  • Caught red handed! I hoped to get away with this, which is a quotation of Pooh-Bah in The Mikado. Trying my luck, truth to tell. I'll redraw. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It needed no inadvertent boost from Janin: I would cut this: I feel the authorial voice is becoming a little too personal/essayistic rather than encyclopaedic here. On the other hand, if Janin pointedly refused to review it, that's interesting and another matter.
  • I don't agree. It seems to me reasonable to mention that after two Janin pannings a third wasn't needed for success. Tim riley talk 19:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are we seriously suggesting that the first two both needed a Janin panning to be successful? I can wear it for Orpheus, but we've presented it as the icing on the cake with Helene rather than the critical ingredient. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have said so in the preceding paragraph. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • included the King of Prussia: as with our French countess earlier, I'd give his name, and perhaps introduce him as "the future German emperor Wilhelm I", given that he's quite famous under that title. Mousing over the link was something of an "Easter Egg" for me.
  • his home in Étretat: I'd clarify that this was in Normandy (and therefore reasonably far from the likely lines of German advance).
OK.
  • The idiom "did good/better business" seems to be coming up a lot: perhaps look to vary it a little?
Done. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • and, exceptionally, Keck records, an ophicleide : I think the hierarchy here is clearer if we put dashes after and and records instead of commas. What does Keck mean by "exceptionally": for Offenbach, or for everyone else?
The former, I think. Happy for you to repunctuate if you wish. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tim riley talk 17:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting that the only comment on compositional method comes from a set of CD notes: has anyone else talked about this? More generally, it's a very short section: I wonder if it could be combined with "Texts and word setting", perhaps under the "Compositional methods" heading.
The CD notes are by Keck, who is generally seen as the greatest present-day authority on Offenbach. I'm happy with the paragraphing. I hate cramming two different topics into one for the sake of bulk. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • a "Litanie",: I don't think we generally use italics within quote marks, though these are scare quotes, on which the MoS is frustratingly silent (except to discourage them under MOS:"). Could simply translate -- I don't think too much is gained by using the French here?
  • I disagree. The French was being used in the hope of bamboozling the local authorities. The inverted commas are not there to scare anyone, merely to indicate that the term was bogus. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's fair enough. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done but with reservations. People may click on it expecting a link to a vocal piece by Offenbach rather than to the RC prayer the Hail Mary. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 25 seems quite interesting and relevant to Offenbach's biography -- the immediate reaction of his family to his death and the fate of his works are both germane here. I'd be inclined to promote it, especially as the paragraph it ends is currently pretty skinny.
  • Done.
  • as a homage: an homage, surely, as it's pronounced without the h (like an hour)?
  • I didn't write this bit, and like you I'd have used "an", but I've checked with the OED and the English pronunciation gets the thumbs-up and so "a" is OK. Tim riley talk 09:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very well! UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We seem to be a bit inconsistent in the footnotes as to whether the titles of web pages (and possibly other types of source) are captialised.
I think web pages should be italicised. If you spot any that aren't I'll do the necessary. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry - misread your comment. On the whole we should follow the ulc of the page, I think. Tim riley talk 09:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:CONFORMTITLE advises the opposite: that we pick a consistent style for e.g. website articles, books, periodicals and so forth, and then render all such sources in that style. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. If you spot any inconsistencies in the ulc of websites in the references, pray mention them. Tim riley talk 11:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might want to introduce Nietzsche and Zola, as they're notable but not as authorities on opera.
  • Done. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)talk:UndercoverClassicist|T]]·C 10:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So is Orpheus in the Underworld and Belle Hélène.: did he reflect in English? If not, suggest using the French title for Orpheus, as we've done so throughout.
  • Impossible to answer, I fear. In Conversations with Klemperer by Peter Heyworth some of the interviews were in English and some in German, translated into English by Heyworth for the book. We are not told the language in which Alan Blyth interviewed Klemperer. I think we must treat the English version as the ipsissima verba. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the content of note 29 (the critical reception of The Tales of Hoffmann) is important and deserves to be in the body text of a Reception section.
OK. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's quite a lot of the F-P war section riding on a Guardian article. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but is there no more academic source we can use here, perhaps in addition?
I'm happy with the source. So is the source reviewer. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • of the Gaiety Theatre: perhaps clarify that this was in the West End, as Offenbach has been there previously?
West End added. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the Royalty Theatre: similarly, it might be worth clarifying that this was in Soho, and so wasn't in the West End (and so was it perhaps less fashionable/more seedy?)
It would not be true. The West End was just as seedy for the most part. It is arguably pushing it to mention the West End at all. The term wasn't generally used for London's theatre district in Offenbach's day. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough (no objection to pushing it that far, personally). UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Vienna, too, Offenbach works: Offenbach's?
Looks all right to me. One talks of Beethoven Symphonies, Verdi operas etc. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we should italicise The Beautiful Galatea, as the title of an opera.
So do I. It may be the lang template buggering it up. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see now what you meant. I don't think we usually ulc or italicise translations of titles. Not sure why not, but the format here is pretty standard as far as I know. Tim riley talk 10:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • both Gilbert and Sullivan follow the lead of Les brigands (1869) in their treatment of the police, plodding along ineffectually in heavy march-time: I think we mean the police here, but as written it sounds like Gilbert and Sullivan did the plodding. Suggest "who plod..."
Done. Tim riley talk 09:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • However much the young Sullivan...: one-sentence paragraphs aren't ideal: I think this one could be merged into the paragraph before. Its first clause could be trimmed a little to avoid making an unduly long paragraph in the process, if you like.
  • It isn't a one-sentence paragraph, and as I say above I dislike lumping together sentences that don't belong together for the sake of avoiding short paragraphs. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Entirely reasonable. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • more human romantic interest: what does more human mean in this context? Perhaps relatedly, I'm not clear whether there was more [human romantic interest], or whether the romantic interest that there was became more human.
Both. It's contrasting with the gods and mythical personages of the earlier works. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • just before the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870: I'd specify that the war broke out in July. Do we know how "just" before his return was?
Not offhand. I might be able to dig it out if I was persuaded it was important. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • as the guest of the Prince of Wales.: you can probably guess my comment here - I'd name him.
A bit unidiomatic. He was, like our present monarch, always known just as the P o W. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes, but many people are known as e.g. the Pope, the Vicar, the Headmaster, the Chef, etc etc, in contexts where it's perfectly obvious to everyone around which one of those is meant. However, it's not obvious here that the PoW is Edward except to readers who happen to know the dates of British monarchs, which isn't all of them. As with all of these things, a matter of taste, but I think a guest of Edward, Prince of Wales is completely idiomatic. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From a quick check I think I am right in saying that he's just "the Prince of Wales" (or the "prince de Galles") in all the main sources. Tim riley talk 12:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • His spectacular revival: what about it, exactly, was spectacular? There's an ambiguity here between "really lavish" and "really good": I suspect the former is the main intention even if the latter may not be untrue.
  • For the 1874 production Offenbach substantially expanded the piece, doubling the length of the score and turning the intimate opéra bouffon of 1858 into a four-act opéra féerie extravaganza, with substantial ballet sequences. This version opened at the Théâtre de la Gaîté on 7 February 1874, ran for 290 performances, and broke box-office records for that theatre. During the first run of the revised version Offenbach expanded it even further, adding ballets illustrating the kingdom of Neptune in Act 3 and bringing the total number of scenes in the four acts to twenty-two. I don't understand your mention of "really lavish" and "really good" as neither of those terms is used in the text. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was querying the specific meaning of spectacular here: does it mean "that opera was very expensive!" or "that opera was very good!". As we're clearly going for both, I'm not sure there's a problem here: whatever the reader concludes, they're right. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The local authorities were not deceived, and the concert did not take place: do we know if they explicitly stopped it, or if Offenbach simply thought better of his plans?
Not really. The source says "But the Philadelphians were very strict about Sunday observance and severely censored his intentions. Although handbills had been printed the Sacred Concert never took place—much to Offenbach’s regret" Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Later: found one! The authorities stopped it. Now added. Tim riley talk 09:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • He returned to France in July 1876, with profits that were handsome but not spectacular: any idea of roughly how much money we're talking about here?
  • (l. to r.) : in all the other captions, we've spelt out: if brevity is felt to be essential here, you could use the abbreviation template, even though it is fairly obvious in context.
Could you be a little more explicit about what you're talking about? Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, the penny's dropped. No, I think it's all right as it is. Consistency is admirable but not when it gets in the way of clarity or economy of words. Tim riley talk 11:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Votre habit a craqué dans le dos" ["Your coat has split down the back"]. Did Lubbock give that translation? It's a little surprising that this is one of very few offered either in the quote or the article.
  • divides the one-act pieces into five categories: "(i) country idylls; (ii) urban operettas; (iii) military operettas; (iv) farces; and (v) burlesques or parodies.": MOS:SOMETHINGOROTHER advises that when a quote gets really torturous, we should stop trying to make it work as one: here we can just drop the quote marks, I think, and therefore also drop the bracketed numbers.
Not sure what you mean. I've looked up "torturous", a word new to me, in the OED: "Full of, involving, or causing torture; tormenting, excruciating ... given to inflicting torture". Seems a bit OTT to say that of my prose here. But if you want to repunctuate it, please feel free. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was suggesting divides the one-act pieces into five categories: country idylls, urban operettas, military operettas, farces, and burlesques or parodies. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I don't suppose I shall be accused of plagiarism for omitting the quotation marks. Tim riley talk 17:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hence 'Donnez-vous la peine de vous asseoir' (chanson du pal) : quote marks are awry here. Is chanson du pal (lc?) the title of an opera? Some more context to this work would be helpful. Is it the song/aria we're talking about here or the lyric?
  • Quotes tweaked. I'm not going to speculate on what Poulenc had in mind. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly, although we did translate it a little while ago, I'd re-translate Votre habit a craqué dans le dos.
A bit excessive in my view, but done. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah! Que j'aime les militaires: If I've got this right, the joke here (if it's indeed a parody) is that the grandeur of a Beethoven symphony is incongruous with a lady singing about how attractive soldiers are: I think a quick explanation of the subject matter of the aria would help clarify this and reassure readers that they have indeed got the right end of the stick (an unfortunate idiom here...).
I think the prose stands on its own feet, and I don't feel justified in imposing my own interpretation. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In passing, I knew this opera for fifty years or so without spotting the parallel with Beethoven's Seventh in the Grand Duchess's rollicking number until I started swotting up for this FAC and if Offenbach was indulging in parody it passed me by completely. Tim riley talk 17:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • a simpler, more romantic style: does "romantic" here mean "like Wordsworth and Wagner" or "with lots of kissing"?
The former would have a capital letter, surely? Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Usually but not always, I think. Happy given that it's falling that way. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • often employing a codified system: what does this mean?
I don't know. I didn't put it there and would gladly zap it if asked. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken a bow at a venture and changed it to "employing a form of shorthand", which I think is what it means. Happy to zap altogether if you think I should. Tim riley talk 16:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming that's a reasonable inference from at least one source (I think you're almost certainly right, by the by), I'm happy here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It then lapsed into what Gammond calls "Victorian sanctimoniousness" by taking it for granted that the opera "will uphold Offenbach's fame long after his lighter compositions have passed out of memory.: I think we need to lose the it in "taking it for granted" (it was taking the following fact for granted). I think it would also be worth spelling out more clearly exactly what Gammond finds sanctimonious here (the disdain for lighter opera?)
  • Looks very odd to me without the "it". And I'm not up for telling readers what I think a quoted author means. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The critic Sacheverell Sitwell compared Offenbach's lyrical and comic gifts to those of Mozart and Rossini: roughly when? We've jumped quite suddenly out of contemporary reception, but haven't actually warned the reader that we've done so.
  • I've rejigged to maintain chronological sequence. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Grand opera" seems to be the only operatic sub-genre we've named in English: as its French equivalent is so similar, I think there's a good case for consistency here.
  • Ah, now this gets technical. Grand Opéra is grand opera, but not all grand opera is Grand Opéra. In English usage the term generally applies, as here, to any serious opera without spoken dialogue, whereas the French term is generally reserved for pieces in four or more usually five acts with plots set in medieval or modern times (rather than taken from classical history and mythology) often with major characters from the lower or otherwise disadvantaged classes, portraying them in a heroic light (hitherto a treatment reserved for gods, kings and aristocrats); and typically presenting controversial themes – religious intolerance or rebellion against oppression, for instance. Offenbach's fairy tale opera was not one such.
  • Poulenc traces the influence through Chabrier and André Messager to his own Les mamelles de Tirésias, in which Wilfrid Mellers finds music modelled on Offenbach's: a little confused about what Mellers is doing here: haven't we just said that Poulenc acknowledged the debt, so there was nothing hidden for Mellers to find?
Rejigged. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • his French colleague: this bit of elegant variation jarred a little, given that we've said a great deal about how complicated Offenbach's nationality was. We've also got an awkward repetition of established with two slightly different meanings here: the sentence could probably be reworked to solve both problems at once.
Done. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we have any idea why the French government restricted the number of performers in an opera?
I have always assumed that is is akin to the patent theatres thing in London -- the established opera houses didn't want the competition, so their friends in the government restricted the competition in ways intended to extend the old boys' monopoly. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Halévy, with his experience as a senior civil servant, saw more clearly than most the looming threat from Prussia: a little uncomfortable here with more clearly than most: I'm not sure that a musical biographer is really a WP:HQRS when it comes to judging the broad French evaluation of the likelihood of war with Prussia, though he can certainly speak with authority on Halévy's own views and perhaps his views of his countrymen. Suggest something like "expected war to break out with Prussia", or a better-worded equivalent.
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In his early pieces for the Bouffes-Parisiens, the size of the orchestra pit had restricted Offenbach to an orchestra of 16 players. He composed for flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, two horns, piston, trombone, timpani and percussion and a small string section of seven players.: as before with MOS:NUM and consistency (here, advise figures).
Sixteen it is. Well spotted! Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the bye, is the arithmetic clear to the casual reader? The timpanist would play all the percussion instruments such as the triangle and cymbals – I well remember such an arrangement from the D'Oyly Carte touring orchestras of my youth – and the figure of 16 is correct, but is it clear? I could make it "timpani/percussion" or even leave out the timpani, which is usually given its own mention in lists of orchestration, but is after all a percussion instrument. Thoughts welcome. Tim riley talk 11:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I wouldn't have twigged that the timpani and percussion were the same player. As you say, it's a percussion instrument, so I think it would be arguably more accurate to include it under "percussion". On the other hand, if it's usually mentioned separately, we could just EFN that the timpanist and the percussionist were the same person? Equally, I'm not sure that many people will notice the illusory discrepancy, if I'm being honest. I certainly didn't until you pointed it out. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I've tweaked a bit. I'm pleased with the phrase "illusory discrepancy", which I've noted down for use if I'm ever in a tight corner. Tim riley talk 12:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Enjoying it so far: the prose is particularly attractive throughout. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What a nice thing to read – thank you. Looking forward to round two. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bracketed dates with the "modest successes" are a bit unclear to me: it's not really clear that those are supposed to have a higher place in the hierarchy than those with e.g. "revised edition". Suggest putting the dates into prose: "in 1867, he released ...., and in 1868, ..." or something like that.
I don't understand what you mean here. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm suggesting it might be clearer to go with modest successes. In 1867, he produced Robinson Crusoé and a revised version of Geneviève de Brabant; in 1868, Le château à Toto, a revised version of Le pont des soupirs and L'île de Tulipatan. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tim riley talk 07:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Doll Song: per MOS:MINORWORKS, should this have quote marks? Where's it from?
Ah I see why you're confused. I've rejigged the sentence. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "opéra bouffon",: here I would simply lose the quote marks.
  • un vil séducteur' to a waltz tempo that is itself unsuitably seductive ... the potty-sounding phrase 'L'homme à la pomme' becomes the absurd nucleus of a big cod-ensemble.: I think we need some explanations here: a translation of the first (OK pretty much everyone will see that there's a connection between séducteur and seductive, but we should be clear on exactly what and who it is), and some better explanation of the second (I must admit I'm struggling to see it, and I like to think I'm pretty good on French vulgarity).
I think it's more dotty than vulgar, but I don't think I can or should try to explain someone else's prose. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I'd misunderstood "potty" as "potty-mouthed" rather than "silly" -- now makes sense. Would still translate the "vile seducer", though. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tim riley talk 07:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Der Kuhhandel (cattle trading): similarly, except here I think we should translate the title as a title: Cattle Trading. Looking into it, it seems to have a different English title ("Arms and the Cow"), so one option would be something like literally Cattle Trading, known in English as Arms and the Cow) I'm a fan of giving translations, but would suggest doing it throughout the article: the inconsistency of starting to do so here isn't ideal.
Known in English would be something of an overstatement. It bombed at the Savoy in the 1930s and was not seen again for decades. Opera North (I think) gave it a rare outing in about 2000 with a different English title. I think it would unduly complicate this section to go into such detail. Tim riley talk 09:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the general point about translations, it's difficult, perhaps impossible, to get the mix right. On the one hand one doesn't want the prose to be submerged by an avalanche of translations, nor to patronise the reader by offering unnecessary translations, but on the other one doesn't want to leave people in the dark about less obvious foreign phrases or titles. Here I have added English translations where I thought they'd be helpful and not where they wouldn't, but I may have got it wrong in places, and will gladly entertain suggestions about adding or removing any. Tim riley talk 10:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No disagreement there. Shouldn't we capitalise "Cow Trading", though, as it's a title? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. 07:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Note 194 is doubled: we could cut the first use, though I don't think the MoS strictly requires us to do so.
  • Not sure what you mean. Note 194 isn't doubled as far as I can see. Could you give the first few words of the note you have in mind?
Ah, it's now 195: citing ...that Strauss did so and ...quickly rebuked by the press.. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure it's better now, but done. Tim riley talk 07:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Großer Griechenmarkt" should be in lang tags (with |italic=no) so that screen readers pronounce it correctly. The same is true for other non-English words and titles (e.g. "der Offenbacher"), though I haven't done a full check for them all.
  • I have kind experts on the case with the lang tags. Tim riley talk 15:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just leaving this up for now to remind me to check back in when the whole lot are done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is all we have left: very happy to support at this stage. I've been doing a bit of a shift on the language tags, and will keep doing so -- having dipped my toe into French topics before, I sympathise with the sheer density of them! Very nice work overall and enviably well-written. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support, and bless you for joining the language-tag chain gang! I keep finding titles and phrases I've missed. Tim riley talk 11:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ssilvers[edit]

The article is very good already, so here are some very picky points in the Early Years section.

  • The "alt" descriptions of the photos don't usually say what the sitter is wearing. All of them would be called "well dressed" today, but can you specify "morning coat", "dinner jacket", etc. (at least for the solo sitters), to give some idea to blind readers?
  • "His birthplace in the Großer Griechenmarkt was a short distance from the square that is now named after him, the Offenbachplatz." Would this be better in the Legacy section as: "A square in Cologne, the Offenbachplatz, named after him, is near his birthplace in the Großer Griechenmarkt."? I am not sure it would be better, I just wondered if you might think so, Tim, as that is how we have present such facts in some other articles.
  • I wondered about this: there are any number of thoroughfares named after him in France, but I concluded that they were not really notable or suitable for a "legacy" section. So the mention in the Life section (which is where Grove puts it) seems best to me. Tim riley talk 16:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lessons in ... flute, and guitar" -- Are you using the Oxford comma in this article?
  • Not as a rule but I think it's as well to signify that he didn't have a class in flute and guitar (though in fairness, it would be damn' difficult to play both at once). Tim riley talk 16:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Together with his brother Julius (violin) and sister Isabella (piano), Jacob played in a trio at local dance halls, inns and cafés, performing popular dance music and operatic arrangements." A shorter sentence could be: "Offenbach formed a trio with his brother Julius (violin) and sister Isabella (piano), playing popular dance music and operatic arrangements at local dance halls, inns and cafés."
  • "the two most musically talented of his children" -- shorter: "his two most musically talented children"
  • " had to persuade Cherubini even to give Jacob an audition" -- Do we need "even"? The subsequent sentences, I think, make clear that it was not an easy task.
  • Well, but he might reasonably have expected that his letter of introduction would guarantee an audition. Tim riley talk 16:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, is this level of pickiness helpful, or a waste of time? -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't for me to say. If you think your suggestions make a material improvement to the quality of the prose by all means make them. When I'm reviewing I try to distinguish between bad prose and prose that merely differs from how I would write it. – Tim riley talk 16:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

  • "recently born daughter" -- "infant daughter"?
  • Not sure that either is quite right. She was two years old, and I've altered to that. Tim riley talk 08:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Early 1860s
  • "his only stand-alone ballet". I think I know what you mean, but for anyone who does not know anything about ballet or that it can be found within an opera or other piece, perhaps you can clarify. The *compositions* sub-article says "full length", but that doesn't convey what you meant. How about "his only ballet presented as a separate work outside of an operetta"?
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 18:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The text says: "He continued to write most of his works for the company, with the exception of occasional pieces for the summer season at Bad Ems." From the note, however, it appears that he *did* write those pieces with the intention to play them in the Paris company's season, but merely premiered them at the summer venue. Perhaps: "He continued to write [[]] his works for the company, although he premiered several of them at summer seasons at Bad Ems during the 1860s."  ?
Redrawn. Tim riley talk 18:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Last years

There is a note: "Guiraud added recitatives in place of spoken dialogue for the Vienna premiere. According to Keck, the rehearsal on 1 February lasted four and a half hours, and Carvalho decided to cut the Venice act, redistributing some of its music." Except for the first sentence, which is repeated soon afterwards in the text, the note seems to be about the French premiere, not Vienna, so it is confusing. User:Tim riley, would you please compare the note to the rest of the paragraph and clarify?

Entirely concur. The sources differ about when Guiraud changed the dialogue into recitative, and I've pruned accordingly. Tim riley talk 17:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Works

In the opening section here, one song title is translated [in brackets], while the others are not. Should they all/none be translated, or is there a reason to translate some but not others? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I have said above to UndercoverClassicist, on the general point about translations, it's difficult, perhaps impossible, to get the mix right. On the one hand one doesn't want the prose to be submerged by an avalanche of translations, nor to patronise the reader by offering unnecessary translations, but on the other one doesn't want to leave people in the dark about less obvious foreign phrases or titles. Here I have added English translations where I thought they'd be helpful and not where they wouldn't, but I may have got it wrong in places, and will gladly entertain suggestions about adding or removing any. Tim riley talk 17:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arrangements (overtures)

"...the scores usually performed and recorded are not by Offenbach, but were arranged..." Were they arranged from music in the respective operas, or do they contain any original sections unrelated to the opera? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The former. Surely you have heard them? Tim riley talk 19:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've made the clarification. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Influence

We say "Les brigands was presented in London in 1871, 1873 and 1875; for the first of these, Gilbert made an English translation...". However, our article about Les brigands says that, while Gilbert translated the piece in 1871, his version was not performed until 1889 (when it premiered in first the US and then the UK). H. S. Leigh's English translation was performed in London in 1871 and 1875 at least, according to that article (citing Adams). Since this paragraph is about the influence on G&S, perhaps we could say, "A revival ofLes brigands in 1889 used an English translation by Gilbert...." -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a footnote explaining that the 1871 version was not heard then but was given in 1889. It is important to make it clear that Gilbert was familiar with the piece before he wrote the libretto for The Pirates of Penzance in 1879. Tim riley talk 07:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Better, Tim, but this implies that Gilbert's version was only used once -- it had runs on Broadway, as well as in the WE, and also toured in Britain (refs in the Les Brigands article). Various later productions have used Gilbert's translation, which is easily accessible here, and Ohio Light Opera both performed and recorded it in 2007].
I don't think that's relevant to this article. The point is that Gilbert knew the work before he wrote the libretto for The Pirates of Penzance. I have changed 1889 to later. Tim riley talk 16:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Headings

To reduce the number of subheadings under Works, perhaps combine "Compositional method and musical structure" as one subheading? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I say above, I dislike lumping two unrelated subjects together merely to bulk out a paragraph. Tim riley talk 07:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead

"His best-known works were continually revived during the 20th century, and many of his operettas continue to be staged in the 21st." We provide little evidence of this in the text. Can you add a similar sentence to the Legacy section somewhere?

Shall do.
And now done. Tim riley talk 07:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Duplicate sentence.
  • The sentence about the 1858 Broadway premiere of Les deux aveugles leading to O's continued Broadway success now appears twice in the article: first in the Life and Career section, and again in the Legacy section. This is not about O's legacy, but rather about productions on Broadway during his lifetime, so I think it is better in the Life and Career section. This is true also of the statement by Lamb adjoining it, which might also be better under Life? -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I somehow managed to engineer an edit conflict with myself a couple of days ago, and several changes vanished and have had to be restored. Blitzed the first iteration. I think it better in the Influence section. Tim riley talk 12:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think the article satisfies the requirements for promotion to FA. It is comprehensive and well-written, and as with everything that Tim riley does, the excellence of the research shines through. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure you are eligible to support the promotion of the article as you are its second most frequent editor and have written 6.9% of the current text. The FAC Coordinators may have a view on this. But thank you, in any case, for your kind words. Tim riley talk 07:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Haha. I support the other 93.1%. :D -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're now up to 6.7% and I've dropped to 78.6! Quelle chute! Tim riley talk 12:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4meter4[edit]

Here are some suggestions for additional content just from looking at Andrew Lamb's entry in Grove.

  • I think the article could place a stronger emphasis on Offenbach spreading the popularity of operetta on the global stage. In his opening, Lamb writes "It was through the success of Offenbach’s works abroad that operetta became an established international genre, producing outstanding national exponents in Strauss, Sullivan and Lehár and evolving into the 20th-century musical." Musical theatre historians have also written a through line to the musical, with Naden going as far as crediting Offenbach for "popularizing the musical form".
  • I think this aspect is pretty thoroughly covered already in the Legacy and reputation section. Tim riley talk 07:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There should probably be a mention of Offenbach's score for Pascal et Chambord (1839) which was his first significant commission for the theatre.
  • There should also be a mention of his first public concerts as a cellist (as a soloist, not an ensemble player) which occurred with his brother in January 1839 according to Lamb.
  • According to Lamb, his first operetta L’alcôve was rejected by the Opera Comique and he had to mount his own concerts to get it performed.
  • The article currently doesn't give the specific year he was appointed conductor at the Comédie-Française. It's 1850.
  • There probably should be a mention of Offenbach's other uncompleted work, the operetta Belle Lurette, which was completed after his death by Delibes.

Outside of Grove, I suggest looking at Offenbach's presence on Broadway and the American stage in general. The popularity of Offenbach's work on the American stage in the 19th century was significant for its impact on shaping the development of American musical theatre which deserves coverage in the article. Lamb's book 150 years of popular musical theatre makes this claim in addition to various works written by Gerald Bordman. This source on page 5 highlights an 1858 production of Les deux aveugles in New York which began a period of high popularity for Offenbach on the New York stage which lasted for the remainder of the century. Preston credits a slightly later production of Helene for igniting an American craze for French opera bouffe. IBDB's incomplete list gives a good idea of how popular his works were on the New York Stage. Obviously there will be better reference material than this. Page 24 of The Cambridge Companion to Operetta has some coverage of wide spread pirated versions of Offenbach's works on the American stage during the latter half of the nineteenth century. Bordman covers many of the original Broadway stagings of Offenbach's operettas, and also chronicles a number of original burlesque spoofs of those operetta productions that also appeared on Broadway. Bordman also chronicles Offenbach's appearances as a conductor on Broadway as well. Bordman's earlier book American Operetta: From H.M.S. Pinafore to Sweeney Todd essentially credits Offenbach as one of several major operetta composers whose works were the precursor to the American musical. Basically the American musical evolved from the operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan, Offenbach, etc. Other possible sources to explore down this path include: [2], [3], [4], [5] Additionally, there are a few Broadway productions made around Offenbach's music after his death which probably should get a mention in the legacy section. These include the 1944 Broadway play Helen Goes to Troy and the 1961 Broadway musical The Happiest Girl in the World. His music was also used in Maurice Béjart's Ballet of the 20th Century which toured to Broadway in 1979, and in the Broadway musical revue Those Were the Days (1999-1991).

We mention American musicals: Irving Berlin and Rodgers and Hammerstein. I'll have a scout round and see if there's anything I can usefully incorporate about O's influence on the Broadway stage. I don't think we should single out individual one-off adaptations such as the 1944 and 1999 ones, any more than we mention the London adaptations of La belle Hélène by A. P. Herbert in 1932 and Michael Frayn in 1995. Tim riley talk 07:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added 150 words on the influence of O's operettas on American musical theatre. Tim riley talk 10:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tim riley This is an improvement, but I still don't think the article has covered the meat of the scholarship of this area. Broadway has been entirely ignored (it's not mentioned once by name), with no mention of how Offenbach specifically impacted New York theatre for decades. I'm not seeing mention of the seminal 19th century New York stagings of his works in the 1850s and the 1860s in the body. This is a mistake, because these productions had a tremendous longterm impact on American theatre. Relegating the content to a single paragraph in the legacy section doesn't really do justice to the scope of the material. I notice that you imbedded important European stagings into the body of the article. What the article really could use is a paragraph highlighting the early New York productions while Offenbach was alive and the way those specific productions changed and shaped American tastes through the rest of the 19th century. (see sources linked above; they cover this) It also needs to highlight his subsequent longterm popularity on the Broadway stage through the second half of the 19th century. One doesn't currently get a clear picture that Offenbach was tremendously popular in America as a whole and on Broadway specifically for decades. That's important because it makes the connection to his tremendous impact on the development of the "American musical" specifically understandable. As one writer put it in the sources I provided above, "Offenbach was the wellspring of the American musical".4meter4 (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear! I suspect you may be approaching the topic from an excessively Americocentric angle. I have already incorporated the "wellspring" quote. I wonder what other editors think. Any thoughts on this from Wehwalt, Ssilvers, SchroCat and all comers? Tim riley talk 17:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think asking for a single paragraph on Offenbach’s tremendous impact on a seminal American art form is WP:UNDUE. I would say that without it the topic is too Euro-centric and lacks an appropriate global perspective on the topic which one would expect from an FA class Wikipedia article. 4meter4 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and have given the article just such a paragraph. It is at the end of the Influence subsection. Tim riley talk 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Before commenting, I'd like to see your suggested paragraph, User:4meter4, and to know where you think it ought to go. Given that this is already in contention, I would suggest that it be as concise as possible to hit the most WP:Noteworthy facts as presented by the "meat of the scholarship". I note that Tim did add a good deal about Offenbach's impact on the development of musical theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given there already is a paragraph on the point, I wonder what more could or should be added without adding falling foul of UNDUE for giving too much US prominence on the subject. I feel the US angle is covered well in the new paragraph, but I'd be interested in hearing from 4meter4 what more they think appropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've just done a swift word count of the Influences section which weighs in at 85 words on French successors; 123 words on Gilbert and Sullivan (with a 74-word footnote); 201 words on the Viennese school; 86 words on other European composers and 178 words on Americans. I'd like to add more to the first subsection, e.g. including O's influence if any on Lecocq, but I just can't find authoritative material. But I think we now have enough in the last subsection. Tim riley talk 11:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Found and added a bit about O's influence on Lecocq. Tim riley talk 08:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, the article seems to be pretty thorough. Nice work.4meter4 (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4meter4, thank you very much for these thoughts. Tim riley talk 07:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update on current word count in Influence section: France 113; G&S 121 (plus footnote); Vienna 203; other European 85; America 211. Tim riley talk 12:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a false measure, because the question is not merely about the Influence section, but has to do also with discussions of American productions of Offenbach vs. French, Viennese, European and other productions throughout the article. User:4meter4's comments above also suggest a paucity of discussion of American productions during Offenbach's lifetime in the Life section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your views noted. Tim riley talk 15:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • You do not need to say twice in the lead that Tales of Hoffman has entered the standard repertory.
  • As the lead is supposed to be a summary of the main text, should you give his birth and death dates in the main text?
  • We used not to do so, I think, but I have noticed a trend in that direction. No objection. The date of death is already in the main text and I've added the d.o.b. likewise. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the two most musically talented of his children, Julius and Jacob". Are you saying that Isabella was less talented, even though she became a professional musician?
  • Redrawn.
  • You are inconsistent whether his brother is Jules or Julius.
  • He was Julius in Cologne but changed to Jules after moving to Paris. I think that's consistently observed in the text, but please tell me if you spot any Juliuses in France or Juleses in Cologne. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No change needed, but it is interesting that you do not mention any prejudice against him on account of his Jewish heritage.
  • Faris (p. 20) speculates that one reason why Isaac Offenbach chose Paris for his sons rather than other important musical centres such as Vienna or Berlin, is that France, much more secular since the Revolution, was more tolerant of religious minorities than those other two cities. But that is only speculative (though persuasive to my mind) and I think it is straying too far from the core facts for an encyclopaedia article. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You include Cherubini as an influence in the images but in the text imply not.
  • I think the head of Offenbach's one and only music college, who bent the rules to admit him, must be accounted an influence on him. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was quickly produced in Europe". Maybe "elsewhere in Europe"
  • "leaned more to romantic comic opera than to opéra bouffe". I think you should explain opéra bouffe and maybe mention it earlier as it was his own genre.
  • I don't want to go into the distinctions between bouffonnerie musicale, comédie à ariettes, légende bretonne, légende napolitaine, opéra bouffe, opéra bouffon, opéra comique, opérette, opérette bouffe and opérette fantastique – all of them his genres – in the life section. I go into some detail in the Works section, where I think it belongs. In the Life section I could expand the text to "... leaned more to romantic comic opera than to the more exuberant [or ebullient/vivacious/effervescent] opéra bouffe" if you wish, though think the difference is implicit and the French term is blue-linked.
  • I think adding "the more exuberant" would be helpful. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Texts and word setting' section. It may be me, but I am unclear how far the wording of his compositions was from him and how far from his librettists.
  • A bit of both. He came up with the ideas and his librettists elaborated on them. I cannot prove but am perfectly certain that neither Meilhac or Halévy wrote the words "Je suis l'époux de la reine/Poux de la reine/Poux de la reine" and "Le roi barbu qui s'avance/Bu qui s'avance/Bu qui s'avance". Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first two sentences in the section imply that he only came up with plots, not words, and the rest of the paragraph that he was writing the words. Maybe spell out before "He took advantage of the rhythmic flexibility of the French language" that librettos were partly written by him. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking forward to it. Thank you meanwhile for the above. Tim riley talk 11:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although he wrote ballet music for many of his operettas". Does this mean for dance sequences or a ballet music style?
  • "It is not clear how directly Offenbach influenced Johann Strauss. He encouraged Strauss to turn to operetta when they met in Vienna in 1864, but it was not until seven years later that Strauss did so. Offenbach's operettas were well established in Vienna, and Strauss worked on the lines developed by his Parisian colleague. In 1870s Vienna, an operetta composer who did not do so was quickly rebuked by the press." This seems contradictory. You say it is unclear how directly Offenbach influenced Strauss and then that Strauss had to work on his lines. "who did not do so" is vague. Presumably it means work on Offenbach's lines, but in what respect?
  • JO certainly influenced Strauss, but probably only by example, it seems, rather than by tutelage. Gammond writes, "Offenbach gave shape and direction to the Viennese school", and quotes a Viennese critic demanding that composers "remain within the realm of pure operetta, a rule strictly observed by Offenbach". It is pure WP:OR on my part, but in Strauss's Die Fledermaus there are, it seems to me, Offenbachian elements - individual numbers, ensembles, choruses, spoken dialogue, and a happy ending after complications of plot - that follow O's lead, but in Strauss's work there is a more gemütlich atmosphere rather than O's more hard-edged gaiety. I can't think of anything in Offenbach that resembles the gentle, almost benedictory, "Brüderlein und Schwesterlein" in Fledermaus. But them's just my views, of course. Tim riley talk 17:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not clear what you mean by saying that he influenced Strauss by example rather than tutelage. Would not that apply to almost all composers he influenced? The wording of the article seems to imply that the devotion of critics to Offenbach's genre limited what Strauss was able to do rather than Strauss choosing to be influenced. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Lamb's phrase, "there can never be a definitive score of a work that Offenbach never quite completed"". I hesitate to question your grammar, but "phrase"?
  • Well, 'phrase' has various meanings. You are thinking of the grammatical term, defined by the OED as 'A small, unified group of words (in a sentence) that does not include both a subject and a predicate or finite verb', but the OED also defines the word as 'A particular choice or combination of words used to express an idea, sentiment, etc., in an effective manner; a striking or pithy expression.' I use the term in the latter sense here. Tim riley talk 17:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • IBDB database. I think you should spell out IBDB (as you do in external links). And I get an error message when I click the link.
  • The link doesn't work for me, either. I've replaced it with a book reference. Tim riley talk
  • Thank you, Dudley, for your helpful comments and your support. Tim riley talk 08:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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