Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Arsène Wenger/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 12:21, 3 September 2012 [1].

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Arsène Wenger

Arsène Wenger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Arsène Wenger/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Arsène Wenger/archive2

Nominator(s): Lemonade51 (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

'Arsène who?' This article documents the rise of an ‘unheard-of’ Frenchman, who has arguably become one of the most influential managers in modern football. He made a domestic name for himself managing Monaco, fine-tuned his skills in Japan and became the first foreign manager appointed at Arsenal, where he will be entering his 16th year this October. Wenger does not hold an array of trophies like a Ferguson or Mourinho but his ability to produce stylish football and spend sensibly has earned him plaudits. I believe this article is ready for a crack at FA (my first nomination here), given it has passed a thorough GA, been through two PR’s and I have attempted to extract as much useful info as possible. Comments, critique, et al is welcome. Lemonade51 (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• Why are 'single quotes' used sometimes but "double quotes" other times?

Think I've sorted that out now

• First sentence: I think you should give primacy to "manager of English Premier League side Arsenal."

Have done

• Lead: second para is huge.

I decided to split a chunk of it into two, his achievements at Arsenal probably merit a standalone paragraph.

• "net transfer record" - is that a commonly used term? I haven't heard as a fan, and I wonder if non-fans reading this article will be understand the term without a short explanation in the lead. (it's better in the article body)

Removed

• Early life and playing career: mention the Second World War + I think a few more war-related links can be made.
• "He made the first team at age 16" - looong sentence.

Split into two

• Eleven, twelve, but 16.

1 to 10 numbered, 11 onwards spelt

• Not sure why but I find his playing career very confusing. Will elaborate/copy-edit it soon.
• Double-check throughout for vagueness—"the club's sporting director" - which club? "Platini in later years" - Aldo? It's a bit unclear because his son is the famous one, and is linked too.

Addressed

• "losing the same number of matches" - losing six matches or losing the same number as Bordeaux? (and why is this worthy of mention either way?)
• Doesn't Coupe de France need to be clarified as France's domestic knockout cup tournament?

Have clarified in the main body

• "whom he had met during the 1993 match-fixing scandal" - how exactly do you meet someone during a scandal?

Rephrased

• "Several English players have started their careers at Arsenal under Wenger, including Cole, David Bentley, Steve Sidwell, Jermaine Pennant and Matthew Upson while young English talent such as Theo Walcott, Kieran Gibbs and Jack Wilshere are still building careers at the club." - source?

Added two sources, one for the players previously at Arsenal (and Walcott), another for the latter two.

• Don't see how Pardew's Swedish wife is relevant at all. I think you can end that exchange at "passports."

Have done

• Can the very-large "Arsenal: 1996–present" section be split in two?

Split from 1996–2003 and 2003–

• "The Arsenal defence, which set a new record" - which year?

2006, added now

• "Wenger's early Arsenal sides were criticised for their indiscipline, receiving 72 red cards between September 1996 and February 2008." - why justify criticism of "early Arsenal" with a stat that goes to 2008? And how does this stat compare to other clubs? Also, is The Daily Mail a reliable source for football criticism?

Have replaced Daily Mail with a Times match report in October 2010. Between then and Wenger's arrival at the club, Arsenal recieved 80 red cards. The red card tally is a staggering amount. Arsenal captain Vieira was sent off twice in two consecutive matches, Jens Lehmann and José Antonio Reyes dismissed in consecutive finals. In his defence, he joined a club notorious for disciplinary problems. Journalists would not compare his red card situation with other managers because the others haven't been in their jobs for so long (only Ferguson stands up against him in terms of longevity).

• Haven't any biographies of the man been written yet?—indopug (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

There have been numerous: The Professor by Myles Palmer, another written by Xavier Rivoire, Jasper Rees' Wenger: The Making of a Legend. Each have been cited in the article in some form or another. While all narrate his life story very well, I relied on extracting the bulk of information from newspaper articles. Many quotes from Palmer's book on Wenger for instance were taken from Evening Standard/Daily Mirror interviews. Lemonade51 (talk) 15:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments –

• The semi-colon before "though they have won awards for sporting fair play" should probably be a regular comma instead. Minor, but important not to have glitches like that in the lead.

Removed

• Early life and playing career: "and was appointed the coach of the RC Strasbourg's youth team." Don't think second "the" is helping anything here.

Removed

• Nancy and Monaco: Given that there's a Ligue 1 link in the next-to-last sentence of the prior section, I doubt we need another one here.

Removed link

• Same goes for an RC Strasbourg repeat link.

Done

• 1996–2003: Tell me if you can spot the error here: "including the controversial arrival of Tottenham Hotpsur defender and captain Sol Campbell on a free transfer...".

Fixed spelling error

• 2003–present: "A run of three consecutive draws in March ensured first Manchester United...". Feels like "for" should be in there.

Added

• As a general comment from the half or so of the article that I've read, the punctuation is rather odd in places. There are a few areas where stray punctuation appears, and many more that appear under-punctuated. I hate to give the generic advice to get a copy-edit, but I think that's the best course of action. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:29, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've had a crack copyediting the punctuation style myself, given I'm not sure who I could ask to give a quick copyedit at such short notice. I'm not using the serial comma format, so commas before 'and' are omitted, unless between adjectives. Did notice that conjunctions were underpunctuated. Lemonade51 (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

• Team indiscipline and fair play: "to allow Sheffield United's Lee Morris receive treatment for an injury." Is "to" missing before "receive"?
• Relations with others: "after he found guilty over communicating with Arsenal's bench". "was" is definitely missing from this bit.
• Plaudits and awards: Billy Beane is a general manager, not manager. He's never been the actual on-field manager. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Have corrected all points. Thanks once more. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment on sourcing: I have not read the article beyond a quick glance, but I am a little concerned by two related points: a heavy reliance on press sources, rather than longer-term considered views, and the above comment that there are "numerous" biographies that have not been consulted. I am not convinced that press coverage of the books is sufficient to claim that the books have been cited. For FA level work, consulting such print sources is crucial, and I would require some convincing that this article could meet criteria 1b and, in particular, 1c. Sarastro1 (talk) 08:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

All three books have been cited, where appropriate in this article. Palmer's for his early life and education, Rivoire's for his stint at Monaco and Rees' for his Japanese book. I haven't placed a bibliography section, as all books are cited in a unison fashion on the advice of a GA review. What I meant in my earlier point is that with the autobiographies, I found not much information to construe out of them. Wenger is a very private individual and as with many autobiographies, they rely on first hand accounts with friends and family to learn about him. When researching about his family life in order to beef the section up, none of the books had anything new to share. So I consulted newspaper archives and found a David Bond interview with his parents in the Evening Standard, the only one they did for the British press. The Mirror did a series of interviews with Max Hild, his mentor, which later served the basis for Palmer's book. The Times ran an exclusive in August 2004, uncovering his father being conscripted into the German army. The books were written at a time when Wenger was successful, fast forward five years and he is at a crossroads. So you don't get a real overview, hence why comment pieces from sports journalists are used to cite his failings. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, that's fine as far as I'm concerned and you obviously have consulted the sources, which was my main concern. No problem at all. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Support Comment From a quick read, the article is looking impressive, but I noticed one surprising omission: there's no mention that before Wenger, Arsenal had a dour reputation ("Boring Boring Arsenal") that went back many years, but Wenger completely transformed the style of play, and with it, the club's reputation. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Added a bit on it in the plaudits section, as I would think it would look lost anywhere else. Cheers, Lemonade51 (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• A couple of issues on sourcing before I support:
  • I don't think a self-contradictory article in The Sun is enough to support the statement that the Anelka transfer contributed to the funding of the training centre – the source implies that the £23.5m transfer funded £24.2m of purchases and contributed to the training centre.

Have added an Evening Standard article, which states "After all, the club already have a monument to remember Anelka by. It's called London Colney - the training ground built with the profits of his sale."

• • Should we be using an Amazon listing as a source for book publication data? Oldelpaso (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

WorldCat could be an alternative, but Amazon is the only site I can find to state the date/year of publication. Lemonade51 (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Happy to support either way, but I'll leave this one open in case anyone else wishes to comment. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

More comments: I've read down to the end of Nagoya Grampus Eight so far, and it looks pretty good. I've made several copy-edits so far, but feel free to revert any or all if they don't work or you don't like them. Hopefully more to follow in the next few days. Here are some specific points/queries. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• "Wenger is credited for revolutionising football in England in the late 1990s…": Either credited with, or perhaps a little better, "is given credit for".

Used the latter suggestion

• "Wenger obtained his manager diploma in 1981": Either "manager's" or "managerial".

Corrected to "manager's"

• Given that he spent most of his career at Arsenal, I might expect a little more in the lead on his time at the club. The lead feels a little light in general.

Have added more as requested and up to the present day.

• "Wenger became the only manager in Premier League history to go through an entire season undefeated": Surely the team, not Wenger, were undefeated? Also, this is a little misleading. Was it not also achieved in the dim and distant past, long before the Premier League was the top flight?

Ah yes, corrected.

• "a run which ended at 49 matches": The rest of the sentence is about an undefeated season. How can this end? Maybe better to say "and the team were not defeated for 49 matches".

Fixed and split this to two sentences.

• Date in lead for the move to the Emirates?

Have added → 'August 2006'

• "along with his older sister and brother, Guy.": Who is older? One or both? Do we have a name for his sister? If not, I may be inclined to leave out the brother's name.

Removed brother's name, given his sister's has not been publicised.

• The kibbutz quote and "at about the age of six" both look like Wenger said them, but neither ref is by him. Could it be clarified in the text whose words these are?

The latter quote is from his father, and I have stated that now. As for the kibbutz one, it's from Wenger but I'm not sure how to clarify it. Help?! (Found the article for it)

• Note a: Is it correct to say he played in a variety of positions, or are the sources simply unclear?

I guess the sources are contradictory. Have added in the infobox that his position is 'Uncertain' but feel free to change.

• "Staying on as an amateur…" Staying on where? The previous sentence is about his university.

Removed

• "Primorac remained Wenger's 'right-hand man' for years to come": Why the quotes, and why single quotes? Sarastro1 (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Removed quote marks. Thanks for your review.

More comments: Read to the end of Managerial Career now, copy-edits continued as well.

• "but he did have direct input in the team's defeat to Borussia Mönchengladbach in the UEFA Cup, suggesting "one or two changes" to caretaker manager Pat Rice...": For this to make sense in context, a date for the match should be given to compare to his appointment.

Date added

• "Arsenal finished third in Wenger's first season, missing out on second place (occupied by Newcastle United), and hence Champions League qualification on goal difference": Goal difference needs to be linked or explained. Or ideally, both.

Wikilinked and explained

• "The success was built on the inherited defence": I think this may need explaining more clearly: i. e. he had not signed the defenders, and the defence was already pretty good.

Explained that it was assembled by former manager George Graham

• Is "flourished" (in discussion of his new signings) a touch POV?

Reworded to 'profited'

• "Wenger made no fewer than six signings in the summer, including the controversial arrival of Tottenham Hotspur defender and captain Sol Campbell on a free transfer[61] and midfielder Giovanni van Bronckhorst from Rangers, as a replacement for Petit.": A few things here. First, why "no fewer than"? This does not seem an especially large number. Why was Campbell's signing controversial? Many (but not all) English readers will know of the Spurs-Arsenal rivalry, but others may struggle and this should be made clearer. And "as a replacement for Petit": this is the first we hear of Petit leaving.

Have added that he moved from local rivals, wikilinking the North London derby. Bit on Petit and Overmars moving to Barca added now.

• "who threw away a two-goal lead": A bit tabloid-y?

Fixed

• "The team enjoyed another relatively strong league campaign...": Perhaps make it clear this is now referring to the season following their unbeaten one?

Added season now

• "In the summer of 2006, Arsenal relocated to the Emirates Stadium, which Wenger said was "vital" to the club's future, in order to compete at the top level.": Why was this? It may not be immediately obvious to everyone.

Clarified

• "ultimately came up short": Tabloidese.

Fixed

• "In spite of going 21 matches without defeat in all competitions, securing fourth position in the league and reaching the semi-finals of the Champions League and FA Cup, Wenger was subject to open criticism from Arsenal fans – something he alluded to as "like being a murderer".": A horribly long sentence! Needs splitting somewhere.

Split to two sentences now

• It is probable that this is mentioned in the sections I have not yet read, but it may be worth briefly mentioning the impact of some of his signings in the overview of Arsenal's seasons, and maybe a little more about the controversy and impact of selling the better players on the team.

More to follow, looking good. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:56, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Next comments: Read first four paragraphs of Approach and Philosophy. A few concerns over sourcing here. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Wenger has been described as a coach who "has spent his career building teams that combine the accumulation of silverware with a desire to entertain and attack", and as "a purist, dedicated to individual and collective technical quality".: These quotes require in-text attribution.

Done

Not done: in-text attribution needs "described by X as..." Sarastro1 (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Right, hopefully done now.

• "His style of play has been contrasted with the pragmatic approach of his rivals, but he has assembled teams to produce disciplined performances, markedly the 2005 FA Cup Final against Manchester United.": A few problems here: who has contrasted his approach? The link to the Syed column just goes to the Arsenal section of the Times website, and I'm not convinced that the latter part of the sentence is supported by the refs. The Syed ref makes the contrast in styles, but the other ref is a match report to the FA Cup final. Who is saying that he is capable of disciplined performances? This looks a little like synthesis here. We need a source which says something along the lines of his teams were attacking but could defend on occasion, such as the FA cup match. Not just link to the match.

After some digging, have found one from The Times in March 2010

• "Although Wenger for a number of years employed a 4–4–2 formation, since 2005, he has often relied on 4–5–1 with a lone striker and packed midfield": The ref does not support the 4-4-2 formation, and a match preview from 2006 cannot be used to say that he has used this formation since 2005.

Been specific and rephrased to Champions League matches in the 2005–06 season, which is now cited.

• "Beginning with the 2009–10 season, largely due to the development of Fàbregas, Wenger has instituted a fluid 4–3–3 formation at Arsenal, with the front five attackers changing positions freely during the match": Not reflected in the source. The source previews the 2009-10 season, and cannot possibly justify the sentence as given. And it does not really mention the development of Fabregas.

Have added a match report focusing on Cesc's role, removed the bit about 'changing positions freely' as it isn't accurate.

This now works better with the ref, but "Beginning with the 2009–10 season, largely due to the development of Fàbregas, Wenger has instituted a fluid 4–3–3 formation at Arsenal." is not quite reflected in the source, which suggests Fabregas benefited from the change rather than caused it. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Tweaked language

• "The team, as a result have been criticised for lacking a "killer touch", being one-dimensional and want[ing] to score a 'nice' goal as opposed to shooting.": Is this a quote or not? If not, why "want[ing]"?

"want[ing] to score a 'nice' goal" should have been quoted, corrected now

As above, requires in text attribution ("criticised by X") Sarastro1 (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Done now hopefully

• The "losing his cool" paragraph has a slightly random appearance. Again, instead of choosing one-off incidents, I think it needs a source which says "in recent years, he has lost his cool, for example X, Y and Z."

Decided to remove one-off incidents and chose to summarise his touchline antics being likened to Basil Fawlty, cited of course.

This sort of works (I'm not sure how appropriate Basil is as a comparison, but never mind!), but I think you have the wrong source. The one cited does not mention Fawlty or Wenger's "antics". Did you mean this one?. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

My mistake, used this one now.

• As a general comment here, it may be an idea to go over the article and make sure that the sources are saying what the article is saying, and that there is no synthesis going on. I am slightly concerned at finding 3 sourcing issues here and one or two instances of possible synthesis. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Will certainly do so. The majority of this section had been rewritten after the GA review, which meant certain sources became redundant and as I did not have much access to archives, it all became a bit messy. Thanks once more for taking the time to review. Lemonade51 (talk) 22:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

More: Apart from the new problems above, a few more sourcing issues. Most of the rest looks OK down to the end of "Approach and philosophy". Sarastro1 (talk) 14:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• "In England, Wenger is regarded for underlining the importance of diet and nutrition in football. He cited the culture of the country being at the root of the problem, adding "It's silly to work hard the whole week and then spoil it by not preparing properly before the game. As a coach you can influence the diet of your players. You can point out what is wrong."" This is cited to a 1996 newspaper article. How can this reference the idea that he is admired for his stance towards diet given that it comes from the start of his career?

Cited the first sentence. Rephrased the second to make it clear Wenger said that when he first joined the club.

• "The innovations had a desirable effect on the team as it prolonged the careers of players over the age of 30.": The source does not say this at all. It comments that Wenger believed players were finished at 30, and several players proved him wrong. It then goes on to list his innovations.

Answered

• "Regardless, Wenger has been able to sell his players at a higher cost": Not sure what this means here.

Removed, given it is a tad inaccurate. Young players at Arsenal are generally on good wages, so it has become difficult to shift them in recent seasons. If they do leave with and are sold for a profit, it's usually marginal. The better players leaving every summer has become a bigger concern.

• Team indiscipline and fair play: A little too defensive here perhaps? An opinion is given and then shot down, but many would probably agree on the indiscipline. Also, has Wenger not also been criticised for always defending a player who was sent off, or claiming not to have seen it. On the other hand, most managers do this, so unless a source specifically singles him out, this may not be possible. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, I see this is covered in the next section. Not a big deal, but possibly it would be better here than later, but feel free to disagree. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Moved it as suggested

Final comments: I've read to the end of the article now, and while there are still a few issues to be ironed out, it looks good. I'm a little confused over the structure at the end, though. Surely combining the praise and criticism into one section would make the article a little more balanced at the end? Not a huge issue overall, though. When the final issues are addressed, I'll have a last read through. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Tried to think of ways of how I could do this. Lazily merged the praise and critic sections in my sandbox, which looks a tad lengthy when you exclude the indiscipline and foreigner bits. Of course it could be shorten, but I do think how the article currently is, works well. Lemonade51 (talk) 01:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Support with copy-editing disclaimer: I've copy-edited this article fairly heavily, but I'm happy to support. There are parts of the prose which could still be smoothed (this was the main focus of my copy-editing) but I think it meets the criteria. The content and balance is very good, and while I wonder if parts of it are a little too friendly towards Wenger, I have no doubts that it is balanced and does not contain any POV. My only reservation is that further spot-checks may be needed: I found a few issues earlier (none since then, however) and it may be worth another editor taking a look at the sourcing. A good piece of work on a subject who I suspect is not easy to research or write about. Just one last point below. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• "The war left the community "mentally scarred," with those choosing to rebel being subjected to "threats about what they would do to your parents."[7]": Just wondering if this is needed at all? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Have removed the sentence. Thanks once more for your thorough review. Lemonade51 (talk) 18:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Delegate's comments An image review and spotchecks for verification and close-paraphrasing are needed. Graham Colm (talk) 17:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• Journalists give Wenger credit for revolutionising football in England in the late 1990s, primarily through the introduction of changes in the training and diet of players while implementing a philosophy of entertaining football on the pitch.

Nobody can "implement a philosophy of entertaining football on the pitch.

Do you mean that he sought to implement a philosophy that football, on the pitch, ought to be entertaining?

• Born in Strasbourg and subsequently raised in Duttlenheim, Wenger was introduced to football by his father.

Two problems here.

1. Don't presume that I (or anyone else) know where Strasbourg is. One of the interesting facts about this man is that he wasn't born in the UK. State the country, preferably in the first paragraph.
2. Born in Strasbourg and subsequently raised in Duttlenheim, Wenger was introduced to football by his father.

Stringing together unrelated ideas doesn't work, meaning-wise, and doesn't read well. Wenger's place of birth has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that his father introduced him to football. The two statements belong in different sentences. Actually, unless you mention the fact that his father had some connection, any connection, with the sport, then the fact that his father introduced him to it, Doesn't need to be in the intro. Does it mean that his dad watched a lot of footy on TV, or does it mean that he coached the Duttlenheim Warriors to glory against Barcelona?

Amandajm (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Believe I have addressed both parts now. Thanks for your comments. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.