Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Al-Adid/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 17 June 2023 [1].

Al-Adid[edit]

Nominator(s): Constantine ✍ 19:19, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the last Fatimid caliph, who came to the throne as a child and died at the age of twenty, in 1171. He was mostly a puppet ruler, while military strongmen vied for the vizierate, and Egypt was threatened by both the Crusaders and the Zengids of Syria. His last vizier was none other than Saladin, who over time dismantled the Fatimid caliphate and its Isma'ili institutions and after al-Adid's death established the Sunni Ayyubid dynasty, under himself. I have written the article from almost scratch over the last few years as part of an effort to eventually bring all Fatimid caliphs to FA, and it passed GA in February. It is a fairly comprehensive account of al-Adid's reign, though not as much of al-Adid himself, as he only appears intermittently on the scene during this time. I hope that reviewers will enjoy it. Any feedback for further improvement is, of course, welcome. Constantine ✍ 19:19, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass (t · c) buidhe 18:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Funk[edit]

  • Looks interesting, will have a look soonish. FunkMonk (talk) 18:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images of any relevant places or people to show? Looks a bit bare in places.
    • I am looking, but not much, unfortunately. Saladin is represented by the coin in the infobox, I have not been able to find any historical depiction of al-Adid or a coin from his reign (I refuse to use this image), or even a medieval miniature depicting some of these events (at least in Commons). There are some photos of monuments of Cairo, but they are not relevant to the text.
I can see why you wouldn't want to use that image, but I'll concede that at least the unretouched version[2] looks better and less garish. FunkMonk (talk) 01:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both images are ultimately highly ahistorical, contain nothing that uniquely identifies al-Adid (except perhaps the Fatimid mizalla, and that is highly debatable), and are devoid of any encyclopedic or artistic merit. I could equally well use a stock image of a generic 'caliph' instead. There are some images available of his coins (e.g. [3] or [4]) but they are under copyright (or at least copyright is not clear enough to allow reuse).
  • The intro looks a bit funny now, first a very short paragraph followed by a massive WP:wall of text. Any way this could be balanced better, at least by breaking up the big paragraph?
    • Have expanded a bit and split it at the beginning of Saladin's vizierate.
  • "provided by Ibn Khallikan" present him.
    • Done
  • "The official doctrine of Isma'ilism" Could be explained this is a Shia variant.
    • Good point, added.
  • "was noticed by its Sunni rivals, the Abbasids" State where they were based?
    • Done
  • "he Abbasid caliph issued a diploma" Name him?
    • Done
  • "As al-Fa'iz had no offspring" Almost seems self-evident since you stated he was only 11? Is there a more elegant way to put this?
    • Rephrased to 'Lacking a direct heir'
  • "the underage al-Adid was elevated to the throne" How old was he?
    • Added
  • "Soon after, the new vizier suppressed the last revolt by a claimant of the Nizari line" State if this is also Fatimid.
    • Done.
  • Isma'ili is linked at second instead of first mention.
    • Removed the second link, the first is still in the 'Origin' section.
  • Link Kurdish.
    • Done.
  • Link eunuch? It has a section about the practice under the Fatimids.
    • Good point, done.
  • "awarded him the title al-Malik al-Awhad ('the Singular Prince')" But doesn't Malik mean King?
    • Can be translated both ways (in the sense of a King being a prince/monarch), here I followed the source. But in order to avoid confusion and be consistent, I changed it to King.
  • "His death on 13 September 1171 only sealed the demise of the Fatimid Caliphate." State age at which he died?
    • Done
  • Support - I'm sure there isn't much more about the person himself in the sources, so this seems like a good way to contextualise his life. FunkMonk (talk) 18:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you FunkMonk for your time and very helpful comments. Constantine ✍ 19:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Al Ameer[edit]

This is very comprehensive and well-written article about al-Adid and the epilogue of the Fatimid Caliphate. I made some copyedits—please revise if any were unhelpful. I will give the article a further look tomorrow, but as of now I’m grasping at straws to find deficiencies. Al Ameer (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "fourteenth caliph", "24th imam", "13th-century", etc. Recommend consistent style, though unsure if this is a requirement.
    • It is, MOS:NUMERAL. Have homogenized to spelled-out forms.
  • Overuse of "regime"?
    • I agree, partly. My use of regime was to emphasize the distinction between the Isma'ili-Fatimid ideological and institutional framework and that of the Egyptian state, whose framework largely was carried over into the Ayyubid era. Similar to how one would differentiate the 'Nazi regime' from the 'German state'. I have therefore reverted some of the regime -> state changes, where most appropriate.
  • Do we have the name of that Nizari claimant to the throne?
    • Added.
  • Define the Maghreb for unfamiliar readers i.e. "(western North Africa)" Al Ameer (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done.
Thanks for the excellent edits, Al Ameer son. Take your time with reviewing :) Constantine ✍ 13:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Out of nitpicks. Well done. Al Ameer (talk) 03:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • References and sources are both consistently formatted
  • Sources used are known to me as highly RS
  • Spotchecks not made.
  • Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:38, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Unlimitedlead[edit]

Coming soon. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:27, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "...vizier Salim ibn Masal installed al-Hafiz's youngest son, the 16-year-old Isma'il, as caliph with the regnal name al-Zafir bi-Amr Allah..." I think giving al-Zafir bi-Amr Allah's reign dates would be useful here, like you did with al-Hafiz li-Din Allah.
    • Normally I would, but al-Zafir's date of accession is (indirectly) mentioned right before, and it is immediately followed by an explicit mention of the year of his death, so it is rather redundant.
  • "...by then vizier, Abbas ibn Abi'l-Futuh" Should there be a "the" before "then"?
    • Changed to 'his'
  • I think inserting a note somewhere about all the Islamic religious factions would be of use.
    • Can you be more specific as to what should be explained? I have to assume a basic level of knowledge about at least the Sunni/Shia being two rival factions of Islam, and that people will follow the links, otherwise the footnotes will be massive.
Sure I can elaborate. As a student of world history, Sunni vs Shia was been engrained into my brain permanently, but Hafizi Isma'ilism is an unfamiliar term to me. Maybe a breif explination of the difference of that from Sunni/Shia would make the article easier to navigate. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead: I tried it with a footnote, but explaining the differences just kept getting bigger and bigger (Hafizi is a branch of Isma'ilism, but what is the relationship of Isma'ilism to Shi'a Islam, etc). Have for now clarified in the lede that Hafizi Isma'ilism is a branch of Shi'a Islam. That should IMO provide enough context, in that a) Hafizi Isma'ilism is Shi'a, hence opposed by Sunnis, and b) rival to other Shi'a branches like the Twelvers.
I do not see the footnote? Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I failed to write up a concise footnote, that was my point. I really want to avoid the wall-of-text footnotes I used in al-Hafiz... Constantine ✍ 14:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More comments to follow when these have been completed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking this on, Unlimitedlead. Done or responded above. Constantine ✍ 19:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unlimitedlead ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Gog, I am awaiting a response about the Islamic religious factions before I continue any further comments. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Constantine ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead and Gog the Mild: I've replied above. Open to debate this further, but if I can avoid the huge footnotes from other Fatimid articles, I'll be very happy. Be that as it may, can we continue with the review? There's surely other issues to uncover... Constantine ✍ 20:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Al-Fa'iz was of sickly disposition, and died on 22 July 1160..." Is this comma necessary?
    • Removed.
  • "As a result" is somewhat vague; maybe it could be changed to "As a result of the plaucity of information on al-Adid..."
    • Indeed, added.
  • "personal description" What is meant by this? A physical description?
    • Yes, changed.
  • "Amalric (r. 1163–1174),seriously" Spacing error here
    • Fixed.
  • I am seeing the usage of the word "momentous" quite often, and I am not sure I am comfortable with it.
    • Rephrased both cases.
  • "Shirkuh's unexpected death on 23 March 1169..." How did he die? The political intrigues of this article could suggest an assassination, but if he died naturally, that should be said.
    • Added cause.
  • "...the vizierate is declared as hereditary..." Why is this in the present tense?
    • No reason, fixed.
  • " As al-Adid's vizier, Saladin, a Sunni who had come into Egypt with a Sunni army as the representative of Nur al-Din's militantly Sunni regime, now found himself in charge of a nominally Isma'ili state, and even of the Isma'ili religious establishment (da'wa)" This entire sentence is a run-on.
    • Indeed, have rewritten this.
  • "Historian Michael Brett" False title?
    • Fixed.
  • "This policy" Policy of what?
    • Rephrased for recision
  • Why are none of al-Adid's issue in the infobox?
    • Good question. Added now.

That is all from me at this time. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. I will support this nomination now. Great work. Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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