User talk:ProfGray

Welcome!

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Advice with modest assignments for college students?

Hi. Just saw your response at [[1]]. Wow, from your user page, I see you've done an incredible amount of editing of Bible articles. I'll be teaching a course in Hebrew Bible next semester, ~14 students, at a public university. Though I might try to give them Wikipedia assignments. So I'm looking for some suitable opportunities -- where they can start small, engage in Talk with experienced editors, and paraphrase & cite some academic literature. I'm planning to work with the Wikipedia: Wikipedia Education Program. So, might you be interested in helping me think about the course assignments and so on? Take care, ProfGray 20:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm interested in talking about this - it's something I've thought about off and on for a few years. The obvious place to start would be the Psalms - there is an article on every Psalm, but most are very short. E.g. Psalm 81. So you might ask the students to add in something about genre, structure and theme. The key difference between this and the usual sort of assignment is the lack of student's opinion or evaluation - they would be strictly citing scholarly authorities in a non-neutral way: "Walter Brueggemann regards this as a psalm of lament." But even then, it would take a bit of research to know whether that is Brueggemann's idiosyncratic view or the general consensus among scholars. Anyway, I hope this helps - keep in touch. StAnselm (talk) 20:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree about asking for a neutral report from academic sources. I thought about Psalms, since so many showed up as stubs (I think in the WP:Judaism project). However, I'm reluctant to go there because I personally know so little about the scholarship on Psalms, plus the Coogan textbook doesn't address the Psalms until late in this intro course.

So far, I've come up with a few angles that mesh with my syllabus from last year. Students could work in pairs maybe on #1 and then teams split up the others?

1. A single Pentateuchal verse (or Psalm stub?) on the source criticism, so they learn JEDP, which is early in Coogan.
2. Mosaic covenant, eg., comparing Weinfeld and Mendenhall.
3. Tumah and taharah, improve the Biblical section, add comparison of Klawans and Hayes.
4. Book of Ezra, the synopsis and historical / archaeological analysis.

Anyway, I suppose we could come up with various alternatives to #2-4 that combine academic articles and plausible options on WP. Your thoughts?

What I'd like to do soon is email the registered students to sound out whether they'd like this at all -- because it the Wikipedia training would displace part of what'd they otherwise learn in the course. Let me know, too, whether you'd like to give me feedback here, or User:HG/Bible where I can record our ideas, or by email. Thanks very much! ProfGray 21:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If you were thinking about creating articles for individual verses, be aware that they might not be regarded as individually notable. StAnselm (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that. I already started a WP:N conversation here and looked at some old debates about verses. [2] How hard would it be to scope out the notability of specific verses? Or maybe choose a Pentateuch passage that hasn't been covered much if at all? Thanks! ProfGray 23:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be fine if you restricted it to "key" verses. Like Exodus 6:3, Exodus 19:6, etc. I'm sure you could come up with fifteen of them - or get the students to choose their own. StAnselm (talk) 06:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

StAnselm , I've moved the conversation here for reasons that will be apparent (or we can discuss via email).

Agree about the verses, thanks. ProfGray (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Getting support for new WP assignments in a Spring 2015 course

Greetings. I teach at Miami Univ (Oxford OH) and I'm thinking about adding WP assignments to one of my courses next semester. Have you had experience in helping college teachers in setting up and implement a WP-related course? Would you be open to working with me or perhaps referring me to another volunteer? Thanks! ProfGray 19:21, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Glad to hear, I'd be happy to help! I haven't helped set up a course yet, but I served as a resource for a couple courses this last semester - I can point you in the right direction and would be happy to provide guidance along the way. I'm not sure how much you've looked into Wikipedia's Education Program, but I'll provide some preliminary information. If you head over to Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Setting up your course, that'll get you on your way to set everything up. What you'll do is create a course page for your class (basic description, course timeline, etc.). Wikipedia:Training/For educators/Resources has links to a few resources you might find helpful, including an outline for what a 12-week course might look like. You might check out this course for an example of what one of Ohio State's instructors did for their class this last semester. Once you've got the basics of your course set up, you'll submit a request for course instructor rights, which will give you the tools you need to run a course here on Wikipedia. I have set up Education Program:Miami University for you to list your course under.

If you run into anything or have any questions at any point, feel free to ask. You can contact me here or through email. Either I'll be able to answer your questions or point you to someone who can. I'll also be happy to review your course page once that gets going. Finally, Wikipedia:Education noticeboard also serves as a forum for questions or issues. Looking forward, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the prompt reply. I went thru the orientation since my initial message and I've looked at some courses and assignments.

However, the system didn't let me request Course rights (needed to create a course) ... ProfGray 21:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, you've got a few options. You... only need a unified login to use the Article Design Wizard. You could technically avoid using the Wizard by skipping it and creating your course page from scratch, with inspiration from other course pages or by stealing from my test course at User:SuperHamster/Test Course (which is the result of me trying out the Wizard myself). This would, of course, take a lot longer than the Wizard… ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for setting up Miami Univ as an institution! Well, I got my global account SUL, thanks for help there, too. Then I just entered the entire course into Wizard -- and it hung up, spun for 15 minutes. Sigh. Don't I need to create the course via wizard, before requesting course user rights? If so, I wonder why the Wizard didn't work. ProfGray 06:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, had my math final last night and sleeping was a big priority :) I see you have a course page - did you ultimately have success with the wizard? ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Hope you got rest and ended your semester well. Yes, the wizard worked but I edited it extensively and got instructor approval. Did you look it over? Feedback welcome. Three questions: how to remove that big block at the top of my (user page) course page? How to redo the grading template at bottom? Or is there are more flexible template where I can input subsets/subtotals and both % and points per assignment? Also, what's a best practice for posting an assignment (e.g., subpage of course page?) and tracking their contributions on that specific assignment? E.g., where do I describe an early assignment to insert a sentence with a ref, and where can I collect all these sentences together to grade them? ProfGray (talk) 14:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Adam (Wiki Ed), see above 3 questions. I probably asked you the 2nd elsewhere. Also, who adds Super to the course "online volunteers" (assuming SH will continue :) -- you, or SH, or me? ProfGray (talk) 15:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, ProfGray! I believe you may add them to the course. I'll take a look at the templates on the course page. Adam (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

When you say the big block at the top of the course page do you mean this? I believe that's the standard header for courses generated with the course extension. The intent is to give Wiki Ed staff and community volunteers a clear picture of a class that's in the program (activity, schedule, users, articles, etc.) at a glance. As for updating the grading rubric, I'll point ping Sage (Wiki Ed) who will be able to answer that question. Adam (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Adam (Wiki Ed), Hi -- I meant the 3 step course box at the top of [[3]]

For the assignments, I saw that Joan Strassman had a series of boilerplate assignments (I think) here: Wikipedia:USEP/Courses/Behavioral Ecology (Joan Strassmann). Where is there a menu of these boilerplates? Is there a wizard or something that creates the series automatically? (Or did I skip it by accident?)

FYI: just found Help:Education Program extension. Who's the course coordinator? That person can add an ambassador, or the ambassador can do it, but I can't. Thanks ProfGray (talk) 16:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I deleted the "course details template" :) ProfGray (talk) 16:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

ProfGray (cc User:Adam (Wiki Ed)): The way that {{course details}} template works is that if it's in user space, it has the big box of instructions at the top. If it's transcluded onto a course page, then it instead inserts that standard header.

Thanks, Sage (Wiki Ed), I've moved that template from my user page to the course page. Better there, thanks. ProfGray (talk) 20:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The assignments on Joan Strassman's course page that you linked were not created by a wizard or selected from a menu; those were things she added herself.

User:SuperHamster can add himself as online volunteer.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

As for the grading template, the current one basically just takes arbitrary text input and adds some style around it. You can edit the parameters to changes the % to both % and points. If you need something more complex than that, maybe just removing the grading template and describing your grading system directly would be the best option.

As far as describing the specific assignments in more detail, you can do that by editing the course page. (A subpage would also work.) For tracking grades of those assignments, that is something that instructors usually don't do on-wiki (although you're welcome to do so on a subpage, if you wish).--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sage (Wiki Ed), thanks for the explanations. Let me clarify a question. I don't want to track their grades (agreed, offline) -- I would want a centralized way to track all their WP contributions, such as the sentences & refs they add to articles, ideally to know if they did ok with exercises like posting on Talk pages. Like a special search log. Otherwise, what methods are used by various profs? Do they have to go into each student's contributions and look for diffs? Sounds like it could be laborious. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 18:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey Professor - at the top right of the page, by your username, you should see a 'Courses' link. Clicking it will take you to Special:MyCourses, which lists all the recent edits your students have done. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 20:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@SuperHamster:, don't think that's right. Well, I only have myself as a student now. But it doesn't list any edits, just the article to be worked on. ProfGray (talk) 20:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmm...I'm not sure if the page looks different for instructors vs. ambassadors, hopefully someone else can expand on that. But if there aren't any students making edits, I imagine the page would be blank.

Alternatively, if you go to your course's page, you should see a 'View activity' tab at the top, next to the editing and history buttons. This should also provide you with students' edits. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I can see the Activity tab on another course. But Super it isn't grouped by assignments. It's just a list of edits… and not a very long one, it's truncated for some reason. In the page I looked at, here [4], it continues to track edits from users outside the college afaik. ProfGray (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you want now - AFAIK, there's no easy way to track edits under individual assignments. As you've noted, the activity page just tracks the most recent edits by a course's students. Though in the past, I've found that the activity page is pretty easy to follow as students make their edits.

What I've seen in the past is students emailing links (diffs) of their contributions for each assignment to the instructor, in order to submit them. Alternatively, you could create a subpage for students to post links to their edits on (e.g. here). Just a few thoughts, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 21:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that might work nicely, or maybe it's more extra steps to try to get students to do. Email might be easiest. I guess I have to think about this more. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 21:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

We're working on better tools for keeping track of course activity, which I expect to start rolling out during the upcoming term in a basic form.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Course proposal drafted

Just posted my first draft of the course syllabus and WP assignments plan: Education Program:Miami University/Religions of the Hebrew Bible (Spring 2015).

My request for course instructor rights is located here on WP:ENB. I'd welcome suggestions of Users/editors who might like to support me and the students in the course.

Meanwhile, let me ping @SuperHamster, StAnselm, and IZAK: thanks! ProfGray (talk) 05:19, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

ProfGray, you are invited to the Teahouse!

Hi ProfGray! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Come join experienced editors at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a space where new editors can get help from experienced editors. These editors have been around for a long time and have extensive knowledge about how Wikipedia works. Come share your experiences, ask questions, and get advice from experts. I hope to see you there! Technical 13 (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the Teahouse This message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 16:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

ProfGray/312/Learning_outcomes_by_assignment

It looks like you accidentally created the page ProfGray/312/Learning_outcomes_by_assignment in mainspace, not in your user space. I moved it to User:ProfGray/312/Learning_outcomes_by_assignment for you. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Ahecht -- thanks, very sorry about that! ProfGray (talk) 15:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

"Confirmed"

Your account has been upgraded to Autoconfirmed so the confirmed is no longer required. Normally editors have to be here for about 4 days and 10 edits to avoid things like Captcha's and do certain other actions, I had previously fast-tracked you based on the education program noticeboard. You can review your current account flags at: Special:Preferences (member of groups section). If you need anything, let me know! Happy editing, — xaosflux ^Talk 23:59, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Greetings from the outside world

Hello Professor Gray!

It is I, Ellie Kesselman, here to bother you (just kidding), here to enthusiastically offer you my assistance, as promised in the extra-Wiki world. I perused your talk page, and see that you have received guidance already. It is good guidance, especially regarding tracking student edits, and I can't think of anything further to add at this time. Try to avoid Wizards if possible, as the sitting and spinning problem is one I've had too. Since you are a returnee, I recommend using the regular editor rather than the new Visual Editor, unless you like it, of course. I have a few ideas as far as motivation for your students. Certain bells and whistles are effective for people of all ages, myself included!

Happy 2015 C.E. ;O)

--FeralOink (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Hey Professor Gray - just wanted to wish you a very merry New Years Eve as we head into 2015 :) Looking forward to helping out with your course when school starts back up. Cheers! ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Your article

Hello ProfGray. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do, but I'll try to help. If you go to Book of Joshua you'll find a section outlining the Joshua-narrative's story, and the first subsection deals with the early conquest. It's more complete than yours and could copy/paste it to serve as the introduction to your article.

Then where should your article go next? It needs an analysis of the Book of Joshua itself - composition history and theological purpose. JEDP won't help on this - Joshua's from the Deuteronomistic history, so your students need to understand that. So look at Joshua (the conquest narrative) in the framework of the DtrH, its origins and purpose.

Only last go to the archaeology. What's the current archaeological status of the settlement of the Palestinian highlands and the emergence of state-level entities? Go for the most recent stuff, after about 2000.

Finally bring it together - what were the three theories on the emergence of Israel, where do they stand today?

For an overview, an excellent introductory work is *Moore, Megan Bishop; Kelle, Brad E. (2011). Biblical History and Israel's Past. Eerdmans. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Not sure all that can be covered in a week, but good luck :) PiCo (talk) 21:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

This is terrific guidance, PiCo, thanks! I'm not sure if students will work on that specific article (I only quickly pulled the citations together for the AfD) but your suggestions and encouragement are spot on. I want to start them off on small editing steps based on the few chapters of our (Coogan OUP) textbook. Then maybe work on aspects of Covenant. Any chance you'd be willing to serve as a Online Ambassador for our course? Here's info on this and the application: [5] Anyway, thanks very much! ProfGray (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Identity

As an editor who does use my real name, and has spent a considerable time looking at both gender on Wikipedia, and various forms of Internet/Real Life harassment, I would suggest that rather than advise your students to conceal or make public their identities, you invite them to think carefully about what is involved, and reach a thoughtful decision over what should be public, and what private. Note that it is always possible to abandon an account and create a new one.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:40, 3 January 2015 (UTC).

Hmm. Well, Rich, it's a reasonable idea. If I were confident that these students were motivated to develop social media skills (the course description does not mention WP) or if this weren't my first foray with WP assignments, I'd consider it. But my concern is not only for my students (perhaps they'd learn valuable lessons) it's also to protect my own time and energy from potentially being drained by wiki drama. Do you see my concern? Of course, I'm not going to sanction any student who uses their real name. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

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	Thanks for your helpful comments on the Education Noticeboard! I think it's really good to have some public discussion about the details of what works and doesn't from an instructor's perspective — especially with people who also understand Wikipedia well from an editor's perspective! ragesoss (talk) 19:06, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

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Markup and best practice.

Hi. I think it's wonderful that contribution to Wikipedia should be part of your course. You might want to check that all your students got the Welcome pack further up this page - some new editors still fall through the net. It's worth at least skim-reading some of the best-practice notes, aka Wikipedia:Manual of Style. It's also good to be able to find Help:Wiki markup. The quickest shortcut for a newcomer, when you can't get the code to do what you want, is to find an article that does it, click edit, and read the markup of other editors. HTH Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:59, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Fiddlersmouth, thanks, good suggestions. Maybe I shouldn't admit this to experienced editors, but I am focused on basic writing, such as learning to paraphrase an academic study and cite the source (in any format). This group of students tends to be shy about writing in articles, so I'm encouraging them just to do that. Thanks for the encouragement, maybe you could be an Education Prg ambassador? ProfGray (talk) 01:38, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I've only been here since 2012 myself, so finding my feet is still fresh in my memory. WP isn't like writing a book or a paper. The whole peer review thing usually means doing your own thing within a small team who are similarly attempting to improve the group of articles you are working on. Convincing them of your good intentions is the hardest part - we get used to drive-bys, vandals, and crazy people. Caring about your subject then involves you in defending relevant articles from the vandals and crazy people (and the occasional drive-by "improvement" by well-meaning twits who read the wrong books). Soooo.... Your pupils are becoming involved in a community that improves and curates articles. It might be an idea to find out what makes a Good Article, choose a target, and make it happen? If they can find the sources, it will probably give your pupils the experience you want them to extract from this exercise. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Change in your user rights

Your Wikipedia account was previously granted a user right called "course instructor" by the Wiki Education Foundation. That right enabled you to create a course page through the EducationProgram MediaWiki extension. Starting in fall 2015, the Wiki Education Foundation has discontinued its use of this extension. Going forward, users should create course pages through the Wiki Education Foundation website. That application is more user-friendly, and any content is automatically mirrored to Wikipedia. To prevent confusion, we'll be removing your "course instructor" user right, as it is not needed with the new system. This is simply a notification of the technical change to your account. No action is needed from you at this time.

If you plan on teaching with Wikipedia for the fall 2015 term, please email me (helainewikiedu.org) for instructions how to create your next course page using our new system. --Helaine (Wiki Ed) (talk), sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Helaine (Wiki Ed). I suppose others told you about the link problem to wikiedu.org. Cheers, ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

@ProfGray: Actually, no. What issue is there with the link? I just clicked on it, and it seemed to work. Thanks. Helaine (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Helaine (Wiki Ed)Don't click on the one above, I corrected mine. As you can see in this page's edit history, the original link had https: instead of http: and it didn't work properly for me, tried in two browsers. Better to ask a techie minded person, maybe I'm wrong. Cheers, ProfGray (talk) 20:03, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Please specify which Macht you had in mind

Regarding this addition to the Impurity after childbirth article, please specify the source you had in mind with "Macht". By the way, the Milgrom source above it has become unavailable. Can it be replaced with another link? Debresser (talk) 21:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Debresser, the article is Macht, David I. "A scientific appreciation of Leviticus 12: 1-5." Journal of Biblical Literature (1933): 253-260. http://www.jstor.org.proxy.lib.miamioh.edu/stable/3259207. The other is: Milgrom, Jacob. "The rationale for biblical impurity." Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society 22, no. 1 (1993), which can currently be obtained at: https://janes.scholasticahq.com/article/2391.pdf. Other texts to consider include: Philip, Tarja S. Menstruation and childbirth in the Bible: fertility and impurity. Vol. 88. Peter Lang, 2006. Thiessen, Matthew. "Luke 2: 22, Leviticus 12, and Parturient Impurity 1." Novum Testamentum 54, no. 1 (2012): 16-29. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 01:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. Debresser (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

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Chronology of the Bible

I made some changes that you might like to look at (at Chronology of the Bible). How are your students going with Wikipedia? PiCo (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

May 2021

Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. This is just a note to let you know that I've moved the draft that you were working on to Draft:Ethan B. Katz, from its old location at User:ProfGray/Ethan B. Katz. This has been done because the Draft namespace is the preferred location for Articles for Creation submissions. Please feel free to continue to work on it there. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to ask me on my talk page. Thank you. UnitedStatesian (talk) 18:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

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Hello from Perry

Hi Pari Sarcinator (talk) 22:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Hi, Ro from TikTok (saddest_strong). Thank you for inviting me to help document the Trans community's history! 💜 Rogaricel (talk) 03:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, grim history angle. Anyway, welcome! Let me suggest that you put your draft writing at the top of this sandbox page: User:ProfGray/Transgender Genocide draft.

You might start with two sources that can be found on this page: Talk:Violence against LGBT people#Proposed merge of Transgender genocide into Violence against LGBT people. If you scroll down, you'll see that I refer to "sterilization as having a genocidal aspect" and list two articles. Do you know how to get copies of these? If not, I can email them to you. The sources are difficult to read, so if they are too hard, let me know. The key would be to paraphrase key points that are related to an arguably genocidal approach to trans persons. Does that goal make sense? We're only looking for about 2-4 sentences that give the gist of the articles. The first is more important I think. I give a little start next to each citation, see? ProfGray (talk) 03:11, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Makes sense. I'll get going on that and once I have one of the summaries finished, I'll send it over to you. Rogaricel (talk) 11:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Quick note

I see that you've been pinging Sammy a bit on the talk page of another user. I'm pretty sure she's asleep right now, so it might take a while for her to get back to you. For plain vandalism, pinging an admin or reporting to WP:AIV is usually fine. If you think that there's a serious issue aside from simple vandalism regarding that user's behavior in a topic area with discretionary sanctions, the way to request that they be used is generally to make a report at WP:AE. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I had to go thru a series of edits yesterday because they were problematic, some vandalism and others just tendentious. Some had to be reverted by hand, which is tedious. Just now seeing deletion of sourced content for what I'd consider spurious reasons. Have you looked over some of their edits on that page? It'd be great to have your opinion or intervention, since I'm just not involved enough to understand the levels of tolerance for this kind of thing. ProfGray (talk) 05:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Would you like access to my Zotero references that may pertain transgender genocide? I've approx 30 currently. To be sure, some arguably are more about anti-LGBT violence than the more narrow topic. For access, I'd need to add you as a Zotero user, I think. ProfGray (talk) 16:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mhawk10 hi, I've also gathered more coverage in the media (various quality levels) with ppl debating whether something is trans genocide, and against applying the concept. I'd welcome guidance on what's merely primary source research and what's relevant for inclusion in terms of public controversy ProfGray (talk) 17:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have a Zotero account, but I appreciate the offer to share the citations. I've added a comment on the page regarding defining the core article subject, and I'm going to read through your responses to my comments shortly. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi. If you click on this link, I think you'll be able to see the citations. You would need an account to download the pdfs. https://www.zotero.org/groups/4738771/transgender_genocide_and_violence Btw, I started a draft article on transgender asylum seekers, an unfortunate distraction but hopefully educational. ProfGray (talk) 01:49, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mhawk10: Hi. Are you still seeking to merge Transgender genocide into the Violence against LGBT people article? If so, what timeframe do you have in mind, or can I ask somebody to close out that discussion? If it isn't merged, do you anticipate submitting an Articles for deletion or similar request? You're not required to say, I suppose, but it'd be a courtesy because otherwise I'm putting energy into trying to reach consensus with you (and other editors) and to improve the article, bringing it up to WP standards. You are also clearly putting considerable thought and effort into the content, and I think it'd be to your benefit as well to know the where the article is headed. ProfGray (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

With respect, I still think that the text of the article is a POVFORK. We could remediate that in a number of ways, such as by examining the sources that cover the topic of gendered violence against transgender people and seeing how they tend to characterize it, and then writing the article that way. My current understanding of the literature right now is that there's broad academic support that certain historical events against third-gender indigenous people of the Americas constitute specific instances of gendercide, but also that the article's framework of the elevated level of systematic discrimination and violence against transgender people as "Transgender genocide" or "Trans genocide" generally does not seem to be embraced by the majority of sources that talk about violence against transgender people. I don't anticipate submitting an AfD; WP:DEL-CONTENT is a thing and generally I don't like deleting articles on the basis of their content unless they're totally unsalvageable. But the article needs to be substantially re-written in order to comply with NPOV (and perhaps a title change). I'll explain more in detail on the article talk page. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 19:52, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. A few questions to help clarify our different approaches.

1. Are there any aspects of genocide (in general) that you would not put in an article on violence (in general)? For instance, would you classify as a subset of "violence" a prohibition on marriage, moving children away from their communities, banning a language, or reducing access to medical care?
2. If a minority of sources have a viewpoint on topic X, should that minority view never have its own article? For example, most scholars think The Talmud should be analyzed as legal discourse, a minority think as a narrative. Or: majority think Talmudic law is influenced by Roman law, minority think it's by Sassanian. Or: majority think Sassanian influence on Talmud is due to economic factors, minority think Sassanian influence is due to aesthetic factors.

Q1 because of your take on trans genocide as a fork of violence vs trans (or LGBT). Q2 because you said ("not seem to be embraced by the majority of sources that talk about violence against transgender people," which to me is not quite the right criterion; also "broad academic support"). Thanks, ProfGray (talk) 20:55, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

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Regarding the troll at Transgender genocide

Hi, with respect to the troll vandalizing Transgender genocide, they should be indeffed soon. See this discussion at WP:ANI, if you want to follow along. I have a feeling the discussion will be very short. Thanks for your attention at the article. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 02:50, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

thanks very much! ProfGray (talk) 03:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks

... for your article at Transgender asylum seekers! I've cleaned up the article a bit and marked it as reviewed. A few style points: Replace curly quotes with straight quotes, per MOS:CURLY; when you have a single quote next to a double quote, use {{' "}}, which will put a thin space between them for readability; make sure that the archive URL is an actual, distinct URL on an archive website, rather than the same website. A few content points: Be careful putting too much weight on individual cases of abuse. Although they may be compelling, unless they are widely covered it may be undue weight and compromise the encyclopedic tone. Also avoid external links to advocacy groups. Instead, incorporate relevant groups into prose and give a link to them in some citation. Finally, I suggest being more focused on transgender-specific issues; a lot of the raised points apply to LGBT folks in general. Thanks again. Ovinus (talk) 19:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Transgender asylum seekers

Hello - Long time no see (on my watchlist, at least). I did some copy-editing and expansion of the transgender asylum seekers article and got it nominated at Template:Did you know nominations/Transgender asylum seekers. Fingers crossed it goes better than the last time we nominated something! ThadeusOfNazereth(he/they)^{Talk to Me!} 23:18, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much for submitting. Would it make more sense for me to be listed for "created by" and you as improving it? But I don't know the criteria and also hope you're not offended by my mentioning this. ProfGray (talk) 14:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh not at all - The only option in the DYKHelper script I use for nominations is a “created by” field, but if you want to edit it to clarify the labor differential that’s totally fine! Whatever makes sure you get the credit you deserve :) ThadeusOfNazereth(he/they)^{Talk to Me!} 17:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. The DYK just passed conditional review, provided you change the hook from "more" to "particularly." (Seems they expect you to edit it) .Yay! ProfGray (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Transgender asylum seekers

On 22 October 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Transgender asylum seekers, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that, among migrants, transgender asylum seekers are more likely to be subjected to physical and mental abuse? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Transgender asylum seekers. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Transgender asylum seekers), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

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Welcome ProfGray!

Now that you've joined Wikipedia, there are 47,316,830 registered editors!

Hello, ProfGray. Welcome to Wikipedia!

I'm Jeffrey (Wiki Ed), one of the other editors here, and I hope you decide to stay and help contribute to this amazing repository of knowledge.

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Sincerely, Jeffrey (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)   (Leave me a message)

thanks (though I've been an editor for a long time) and I'm very glad to be in your course, ProfGray (talk) 00:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray Glad you re here, too! Jeffrey (Wiki Ed) (talk) 12:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

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Fixed ProfGray (talk) 22:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Amanda Jones (librarian)

Hello! Your submission of Amanda Jones (librarian) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Good question! Thanks for your review, User:Maury Markowitz. I emailed the editor who wrote that text, perhaps they have a source that was omitted. ProfGray (talk) 17:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

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Jex Blackmore DYK

Hello ProfGray. Your submission at the Did You Know nominations page for Jex Blackmore has been reviewed and approved. There are still some issues that you may want to address about one of the hooks and the short lead section. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there if you like. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! gobonobo ^{+ c} 14:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Amanda Jones (librarian)

On 20 April 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Amanda Jones (librarian), which you recently nominated. The fact was ... that librarian Amanda Jones won an award from the American Library Association for not backing down after receiving death threats for speaking out against book censorship? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Amanda Jones (librarian). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Amanda Jones (librarian)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

RoySmith (talk) 00:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)