Talk:The Patriot Game

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Not one mention of The Dubliners... (Jack Haddad 02:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Do The Dubs include the verse that refers to Dev? Lion King 14:45, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Totally Confused Yank[edit]

I've read some Tom Clancy and have seen the films so my interest was piqued just now while listening to a station/channel (in Maryland) playing music in honor of the upcoming St. Patrick's day when they played "The Patriot Game" as performed by The Clancy Brothers. That is how I landed at this article.

The first sentence states that:

The Patriot Game is an Irish ballad that critically examines the posture of the IRA during the 1950s

"Critically examines" suggests that it it sees some negatives in "the posture of the IRA." The rest of the paragraph then describes the facts of the incident referred to in the song, but it does not indicate the findings of this critical examination by way of song. The next paragraph then discusses the song, its status in Irish and popular culture, but still doesn't tell what the song has to say about the IRA's posture.

Then in the section on popular culture, it states that a book used the same title and that the book "evokes the same cynicism about nationalism, but in a Canadian context." This suggests that the song "The Patriot Game" has a cynical view of nationalism as practiced by the IRA during that era. In other words, it is critical of the IRA's use of nationalism in its "campaign," which results in the violent deaths of many Irish young men.

If this is a correct reading of the song's message, then why, as the second paragraph indicates, is a song critical of the IRA "immensely popular with the IRA"? Also, if the song is criticizing the IRA, then why was the author of its lyrics upset with the Clancy Brothers not using "the verses which sanctioned the murders of Irish police officers" or those which criticized de Valera, who I believe was a critic of the IRA?

If the author sanctions/approves of the killing of Irish police officers, how can the poem by critical and cynical? Is the song critical of the IRA or is it approving its approach? Note that the verb "to sanction" has two contradictory meanings. It can mean "to approve of" or "to penalize." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sanction

Is the song critical of the IRA and cynical about nationalism, or does it approve and support the IRA and its brand of nationalism? Or is the song itself ambivalent? Perhaps the song's meaning is obvious to those who lived through it or know more about Irish history than I do, but I can't tell if this Brutus is "an honorable man." Is this song in the spirit of "War is Kind"? http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/blscranewar.htm Ileanadu (talk) 08:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Dylan Version?[edit]

Can anyone find any substantiation that Bob Dylan ever recorded a version of the song? (the article claimed he did, but I can't find any supporting evidence) 184.36.116.213 (talk) 21:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understood he recorded "With God on its Side" another song with the same tune. PatGallacher (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to this sentence: The Patriot Game has been recorded by numerous artists, including the Kingston Trio, The Bluebells, Judy Collins, Bob Dylan, The Dubliners and The Clancy Brothers. which I read to mean he recorded a straight up cover version (something which I haven't been able to find, and which the song's pro-war message and Behan criticism of him make rather doubtful). If he did record one though, I'd love to track it down. 184.36.116.213 (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article structure has become muddied. Apparently there were some edits recently that removed some key info, like Bob Dylan's full name and link. Also, the introduction has grown too long; I've moved the controversy discussion into its own section. Finally, I've moved the Lyrics section down further in the article to improve readability. Macoukji (talk) 19:30, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that Behan should borrow a tune for a song then claim palagiarism when someone else borrows the tune. Who is to say Dylan did not borrow it from Behan's source, in which case we have either two palagiarists or two songwriters exercising the folk tradition? The important point, though, is that the accusation here falls under WP:BLP; that is, it demands a reliable, verifiable source to support the claim. Since this has apparently been here for quite some time, it would not be unreasonable to allow a month or two for someone to come up with a source, but after that, the material should be removed under WP guidelines. Allreet (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to an editor above, Dylan most definitely did not record "Patriot Game". As for the subject of borrowing, besides "The Merry Month of May", the traditional source cited at the beginning of the article, the tune is also found in the Appalachian song "The Nightingale", according to Michael Gray in The Bob Dylan Encyclopedia (p. 139). Later, Gray mentions a lyrical similarity between Dylan's song and Behan's, but notes that the lyrics also derive from a children's game-song, "Queen Mary" (p. 504). Others who mention the "Merry Month of May" connection are Robert Shelton in No Direction Home (p. 213) and Sean Wilentz in his new book Bob Dylan in America (p. 70). I will be removing Dylan's name from the list of those who recorded "Patriot Game", and if nobody else takes this on, I'll provide the citations for the accusation. Allreet (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see someone has already removed Dylan from the list. While the sources I mentioned address part of the issue, they don't offer anything on "goading" Dylan into a lawsuit, etc. Some of that material may have to be removed, unless I or someone else can dig up the sources. Allreet (talk) 02:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]