Talk:Oleh Sentsov

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Requested move 21 October 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus below to use "Oleh" as the subject's given name in the article and title. (page mover non-admin)  Paine  u/c 02:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – According to ukrainian rules Palu (talk) 11:44, 21 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. First, he is predominantly known in English as Oleg Sentsov. Second, he does not even speak Ukrainian. Third, Crimea is a disputed territory, and whereas Sentsov himself claims that he is a Ukrainian citizen, Russia treats him as a Russian citizen, and it is not obvious that Ukrainian transliteration rules should apply.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support @Palu: WP:UKRAINIANNAMES In ictu oculi (talk) 16:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Why should WP:UKRAINIANNAMES apply here? And even if it does, why should it override WP:MOSTCOMMON?--Ymblanter (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because we have WP:CONSISTENCY throughout the encyclopedia on how we present articles. We have our own MOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think it is a strong argument. First, it still does not explain why WP:UKRAINIANNAMES applies. Russia claims Sentsov is a Russian citizen and refused to extradite him for this reason. Second, consistency would require for example that we have articles with the titles Kyiv and Odesa, but we do not, exactly because of WP:MOSTCOMMON--Ymblanter (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Both spellings are used in English language sources, but "Oleg" is more frequent. One can reasonably argue this should be "Oleg" because Ukrainian official sources use this spelling [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and In ictu oculi. Subject's entry in Ukrainian Wikipedia describes him as a winner of the Shevchenko National Prize and a Ukrainian speaker, not a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. He was born in Ukraine, not Russia, and Ukraine has officially confirmed his Ukrainian citizenship, therefore the use of WP:UKRAINIANNAMES does, indeed, apply here, most emphatically. As for Wikipedia's use of main title headers Kiev and Odessa, rather than Kyiv and Odesa, it is, of course, on the basis of WP:MOSTCOMMON, in the same manner as Wikipedia's use of Moscow and Saint Petersburg, rather than Moskva and Sankt Peterburg. Use of Russian forms for Ukrainian names does not, however, fall under WP:MOSTCOMMON unless, of course, the subjects in question are Russian-speaking Ukrainians. That is the reason such details are specified in WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 09:04, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisting comment: There seem to be reasons above for both the Russian and the Ukranian naming conventiuons to apply. At least two of the above claims should be tested further IMO. Nom stated he does not even speak Ukranian, it would be good to see some evidence of this, particularly in view of the evidence above to the contrary. Second and perhaps more important, it's claimed that Oleg is more common in reliable English sources. This is very a tricky one, and WP:BLP applies of course. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Subdivisions and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Crimea Task Force —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

1) For those who may not be aware of it, the Russian language has no letter "H/h" and the Ukrainian language has no letter "G/g". The same letter, "Г/г" is pronounced as "G/g" in Russian and as "H/h" in Ukrainian.
2) During the Soviet era, only Ukrainian diaspora publications used the Ukrainian transliteration of Ukrainian names, while virtually all reliable sources in English used the "official" Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names — a practice which continues to this day and extends to all the major English-language newspapers as well as proclamations from key sources, such as the European Union, European Film Academy or Amnesty International.
3) Even the announcement from Ukraine's own foreign ministry uses the Soviet-era "Oleg", rather than "Oleh". It should be noted, however, that the Ukrainian foreign ministry's Russian transliteration (of Ukrainian names into English) extends to all Ukrainian names, not simply "Oleh", thus making WP:UKRAINIANNAMES completely irrelevant if all these previously-mentioned sources were to be submitted as prime examples of Ukrainian name transliteration.
4) However, notable examples of a turnaround in this grandfathered form of Russian transliteration are starting to appear. In its English-language reporting, the Interfax-Ukraine News Agency, a Kiev-based subsidiary of the Russian news group Interfax Information Services, has referenced the filmmaker as Oleh Sentsov. Even more significantly, a press statement from the U.S. Department of State uses the Ukrainian transliteration for both Oleh Sentsov and co-defendant Oleksandr (not the Russian form "Aleksandr") Kolchenko.
5) It is also important to note that, in addition to the article in English Wikipedia, an entry for Oleh Sentsov appears in 14 other Wikipedias, all of which, including the Russian Wikipedia describe him, in their respective lead sentences, as Ukrainian, not Russian, therefore confirming the applicability of WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. Among the 15 Wikipedias, 10 use the Latin alphabet. Four of those (English, Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) use "Oleg Sentsov", three (Spanish, French, Finnish) use "Oleh Sentsov" and three (German, Polish, Czech) use "Oleh" in transliterating both the given name and the surname — "Oleh Senzow", "Ołeh Sencow", "Oleh Sencov".
6) It should also be noted that, in the matter of all Ukrainian names, but especially in this particular instance, simply having "Oleh Setsov" redirect to the main title header "Oleg Sentsov" is, at best, insufficient and, at worst, insupportable and unacceptable. It is not simply a matter of the guidelines at WP:UKRAINIANNAMES or national linguistic pride, as in case of the lengthy discussions whether to use Akerman or Åkerman for a show business celebrity at Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman or whether to use Monica or Mónica for a sports celebrity at Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016.
7) The key consideration here is a political prisoner's national identity on which rests his life in the balance. As "Oleg", he is a Russian Ukrainian or alternatively, a Ukrainian Russian, in both instances, putatively subject to the laws of Russia. As "Oleh", however, he is a Ukrainian, winner of three national awards (Shevchenko National Prize as well as Order For Courage [August 23, 2014 and September 24, 2015]) honoring those who have contributed to Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian people. The stakes under consideration are high and WP:RELIABLE SOURCES should be considered from every standpoint and historical consideration of transliteration. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is it time for another move discussion?[edit]

  • Support move to Oleh Roman Spinner's arguments above were not answered. Those are good reasons for a move. Here is my own way of describing the situation.
    1. The Russian spelling is "Oleg" and the Ukrainian spelling is "Oleh". Choosing one spelling over another is also a political choice.
    2. The person is Ukrainian, speaks Ukrainian, and makes Ukrainian language movies. Per MOS:Identity Wikipedia calls people by the name they have for themselves, not the names that others have for them, even if another name is the WP:COMMONNAME. This person uses the Ukrainian name "Oleh".
    3. Oleh claims that his being called "Oleg" is part of his punishment by the Russian government. Oleh says that he is being deprived of his Ukrainian citizenship with his current imprisonment.
    4. There is a political or wartime aspect to this that goes beyond just counting the number of sources - the Russian sources which say he is a criminal call him "Oleg" and other sources which oppose the Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation call him "Oleh".
    5. I acknowledge that there are Ukrainian sources which use the spelling "Oleg". However, this is because of a different transliteration scheme which uses the more familiar Russian system to make it easier for English speakers to read. Ukrainian community centers in the United States have adopted a practice of using the letter "h" for what Russians transcribe as "g". This practice differentiates Ukrainian language from Russian language and supports an individual Ukrainian cultural identity that is separate from the Russians. Especially in an activist article like this one, the usual activist way of writing the content should be followed.
@Ymblanter, My very best wishes, and Andrewa: You participated but did not support in the past. Could any of you say more about what additional sort of evidence you would need to see to support a move? Ymblanter especially - why did you say that this person does not speak Ukrainian, when he seems to have made a Ukrainian language movie? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just do not see any reason to move. The guy is referred to everywhere as Oleg, and I understand a flux of Ukrainian users who rarely edit here but want to move everything with Russian spelling to everything in Ukrainian spelling, but I just do not see any reasons to move the article. The guys mothertongue is clearly Russian.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:26, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This link says that Sentsov likely does not speak Ukrainian, though can understand it. The film is in Russian as far as I can find (I have not seen it).--Ymblanter (talk) 13:37, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure either of my concerns have been answered. I invite answers below. Andrewa (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Common name in English[edit]

Evidence? Apologies to those who feel they have given it above. Andrewa (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Despite the occasionally-submitted argument that naming disputes have no practical reason for existence, due to the multiplicity of redirects, numerous WP:REQUESTED MOVES contradict such a contention on a daily basis. Linguistic nationalists or those who simply wish to specify the birth identity of their fellow countrymen/women, have engaged in lengthy discussions (regarding accents and diacritics) such as Talk:Bela Lugosi#Requested move or the previously-mentioned Talk:Malin Åkerman#Proposed Move (2010).
In the case of languages which use non-Latin-based alphabets, however, the matter becomes somewhat complicated. We already have WP:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) along with specific entries for WP:Romanization of Russian and WP:Romanization of Ukrainian. Without engaging, at this early stage, in detailed discussions about linguistic points, suffice it to say that for the entire period (1917/20–1991) that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, transliteration of Cyrillic-alphabet text (including names) followed the Russian-language form, thus rendering (among various mis-transliterations) all Ukrainian "H" names as Russian "G" names.
After the dissolution of Soviet Union, the Russian forms have continued to be used by the Ukrainian government as well as by international organizations, although important exceptions, including announcements issued by the U.S. Department of State, which referenced Sentsov as "Oleh", have been noted above.
Revealingly, taking into account the essential Russian/Ukrainian nationalistic basis for Sentsov's trial and sentencing, his is the sole "Oleh" name considered sufficiently important to be the subject of this type of Wikipedia discussion.
Wikipedia entries for such names as Oleh Kramarenko (sprinter), Oleh Kramarenko (footballer, born 1956), Oleh Kramarenko (footballer, born 1994), Oleh Venhlynskyi, Oleh Sheptytskyi, Oleh Husyev, Oleh Hrytsai, Oleh Humenyuk, Oleh Mishchenko, Oleh Leshchynskyi, Oleh Makhnitskyi, Oleh Synytsya, Oleh Teplyi, Oleh Bazylevych, Oleh Matveyev, Oleh Lykov, Oleh Smolyaninov, Oleh Derevinsky, Oleh Shamshur, Oleh Krysa, Oleh Lysheha, Oleh Lyashko, Oleh Kastornyi, Oleh Kotelyukh, Oleh Protasov, Oleh Mochulyak and scores of others named "Oleh", describe them as Ukrainians, keeping in mind that Russian alphabet does not have the "H" equivalent (the closest is the letter Х/х which produces the "kh" sound, as in "khave" or "khello", rather than "have" or "hello").
All of the above individuals, none of whom is described (per Oleh Sentsov's description) as a Ukrainian who is in reality an ethnic Russian, are unchallenged as to the form "Oleh" and, while the majority are footballers or other sportsmen, they also include a military hero (Oleh Mikhniyk), public officials (Oleh Honcharuk {Governor of Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast} and Oleh Rybachuk}, American lawyer and musician Oleh Mahlay and Ambassador of Ukraine to the United States Oleh Bilorus.
It is important to note that Oleh Sentsov, who (in addition to news sources) is described as Ukrainian by all Wikipedias which contain his entry, including Russian Wikipedia, would not have his name transliterated with a letter sound ("G") which is not pronounced as such in the Ukrainian language. These outdated transliterations, based upon Russian-language forms, are pervasive in Western media and organizational sources and are continuations of stylistics grandfathered from the Soviet era (as a telling example of such continued use, even the documentary about his case (Berlin Film Review: ‘The Trial: The State of Russia vs Oleg Sentsov’ uses "Oleg" in the title, rather than "Oleh"). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
These outdated transliterations, based upon Russian-language forms, are pervasive in Western media and organizational sources... It sounds from that as though the form Oleg is in fact the common name in English. The fact that you consider these sources to be wrong doesn't change that. Most (perhaps all) of the rest of the above (the other language Wikipedias for example) is irrelevant IMO. Andrewa (talk) 06:50, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does the subject speak Ukrainian[edit]

Evidence? Again, apologies to those who feel it has been given. Andrewa (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Translation of the above-mentioned ([2]) Russian-language article from BBC's Russian service will be submitted shortly as a separate link, but the IMDb entries for Sentsov's two short films ([3] and [4]) as well as one feature ([5]) indicate that these films feature Ukrainian speakers and are classified as Ukrainian-language films. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also irrelevant IMO. But interested to see exactly what the BBC article said. Andrewa (talk) 06:53, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bias of sources[edit]

This is a new issue raised above, and probably timely as it is currently under discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research#The more general question. Andrewa (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1) I should explain that, after having posted my comment [above, 01:36, 2 March 2017 (UTC)], I realized that the Department of State link, which I copied from my comment in the earlier discussion [03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)], was no longer active. As pointed out by Andrewa, instead of posting an updated comment which would have contained the active link, I revised the link by editing my original comment where I also appended three additional Department of State links which likewise indicate the name as "Oleh Sentsov". My own words within the revised comment remained unchanged, but the revision and addition of the links, especially after the comment had received a response was violative of the guidelines, for which I apologize.

2) As for the other issues raised in the discussion, IMO, other-language Wikipedias are, indeed, very relevant, especially in regard to topics originating outside the English-speaking world. As in one of the previous name dispute discussions — Talk:Carl Jung#Requested move 14 November 2016 — the contention (which did not gain majority acceptance) was that in view of the name Carl Gustav Jung being the main title header in 67 Wikipedias while the name Carl Jung was the header in only 4, the form "Carl Gustav Jung" had sufficient supportive evidence to also serve as the main header for English Wikipedia's entry.

3) Regarding relevance, however, one key aspect which was not relevant to the Jung naming discussion, but becomes of crucial importance in this exchange of views, is transliteration. There may be linguistic differences as to transliteration of the surname "Сенцов" — in English, it is agreed to be "Sentsov" but, for example, in German it is "Senzow", in Polish it is "Sencow" and in Czech it is "Sencov". There is no disagreement in these three, however, as to the use of "h", rather than "g" in the given name, a form also followed in the Finnish, French and Spanish Wikipedias. It needs to be noted, of course, that three other Wikipedias which use the Latin alphabet (Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) indicate the given name as "Oleg".

4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source.

5) In the same manner that, in the English-speaking world, Peking became transliterated as Beijing, Calcutta as Kolkata or Bombay as Mumbai [transliterations which have not been accepted elsewhere in the world, including India, itself], Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names and places has been disseminated through Russian-based foreign language media and has been absorbed into English-language culture. Such common Ukrainian names as "Oleh", "Ihor", "Bohdan", "Halina" or "Olha" are frequently transliterated into their Russian forms, "Oleg", "Igor", "Bogdan", "Galina" and "Olga".

6) As has been pointed out in the previous discussion, media outlets and even organizations such as Amnesty International use names in the form presented to them by official outlets, including announcements issued by the Ukrainian government, itself. Twenty-six years after modern-day Ukrainian independence, the Ukrainian government's English-language issuances are still in the hands of those whose training in transliteration comes from the old Russian-dominated system. Wikipedia, however, has its own NPOV linguistic guidelines, particularly, in this case, WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and is not obligated to follow Russian transliteration of Ukrainian. If the documentary film is titled, "The Trial: The State of Russia vs Oleg Sentsov", then, of course we must quote the exact form of the title.

7) In all other instances, however, we should follow common sense. Even Russian Wikipedia describes Oleh Sentsov as a "Ukrainian film director, screenwriter and writer". Nowhere is he described as "Russian" and, since the Ukrainian alphabet has no equivalent letter to "G", Sentsov's given name should be rendered as "Oleh" in the same manner as the names of scores of other Ukrainians named "Oleh" whose biographical articles appear in English Wikipedia. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:28, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am tempted to hat most of the above, as only a few of the points raised relate to bias of sources, the topic of this subsection. But let us try to untangle it.
What strikes me first in this long post is the appeal in several places to other Wikipedias. My claims (several places above) that this is irrelevant are obviously not working. Perhaps I am wrong. See WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias. Andrewa (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since I feel that the points raised in this long post are certainly directly relevant to the topic itself, if this post's content appears to be more appropriate to a general discussion of Oleg Sentsov v. Oleh Sentsov, rather than to this specific "bias of sources" subsection, I can reposition the entire post, if that would be more satisfactory, so that it follows the comment dated 19:53, 1 March 2017 (UTC) in the main/introductory section above.
As for consultation of other Wikipedias, specifically in regard to titling, my concern is limited primarily to human name pages, rather than all pages. In fact, as far as titles of books, plays, films, works of art, etc are concerned, I have been endeavoring for years to convert as many as possible of such original-language titles (used as main headers in other Wikipedias) into their English forms. An unsuccessful attempt at Talk:Sette note in nero#Requested move 30 January 2017 represented one such recent attempt. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:35, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not remove it now I have replied to it. We can hat it if you wish.
Some of the points you raise above do belong in this section. Most do not.
And I've now had two replies at WT:AT, both agreeing that other language Wikipedias are irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 02:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

After some thought, I've decided to post a detailed reply to this 5kB post above, in two subheadings #Irrelevant stuff and #Relevant stuff below. Andrewa (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant stuff[edit]

(Irrelevant, that is, in terms of the topic subheading Bias of sources.)

1) Could be summarised as sorry.

2) and 3) appeal to other-language Wikipedias. See WT:AT#Article names in other Wikipedias, from which I have pinged Roman Spinner twice now, and they are of course welcome to put their views there but have yet to do so. I will now raise it on their user talk page, as this at least borders on a behavioural issue.

4) is relevant, see below!

5) and 6) appear to support the claim that Oleg is the common name, and explain why this is so. The reasons don't matter, if it's English we use it.

7) Appeals to common sense. Common sense in Wikipedia is expressed by consensus. To me there seems no chance of a policy-based consensus to move. I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 05:45, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant stuff[edit]

4) Ultimately, however, unless we decide to believe that the United States Department of State's Ukrainian-language translators have been, in the past few years, propagandistically mis-transliterating the Ukrainian name "Oleh" from its proper Russian form "Oleg" to the Ukrainian propaganda form "Oleh", then the Department of State form (as well as the Interfax use of "Oleh") should be given the full benefit of being a reliable source. The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations? Andrewa (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources and Wikipedia house style[edit]

1) As has already been established, Russian has no letter "h" and Ukrainian has no letter "g", Russians who carry that name are transliterated as "Oleg" and Ukrainians as "Oleh". Analogous to its guidelines for a number of languages, Wikipedia has WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and WP:Romanization of Ukrainian for the purpose of making such distinctions.

2) There are scores of Wikipedia biographical entries for Russians named Oleg and Ukrainians named Oleh. Due to the large minority of Russians living in Ukraine, multiplicity of mixed marriages between Russians and Ukrainians as well as continued domination of Russian language and Russian cultural forms, a considerable number of Ukrainians have been Russified and use Russian pronunciation and linguistic forms.

2) At the heart of this discussion is, of course, Oleh Sentsov himself. A native-born Ukrainian citizen, certified as such by the Ukrainian government, he has received three of Ukraine's highest awards for the advancement of Ukrainian culture, language and nationhood — the Shevchenko National Prize and [twice] the Order For Courage. A political prisoner, recognized as such by Amnesty International, he has been seized by Russia on internationally-recognized Ukrainian territory and imprisoned in Russia, far from Ukraine.

3) Questions have been raised, above, ascribing propagandistic motives to the U.S. Department of State's use of the name "Oleh" in their references to Sentsov ("Are you really suggesting that the US Department of State is a neutral source? Seriously?"…. "The question is not of their competence, but of their objectivity. Do you really believe that they are not aware of the political consequences of their choices in these matters, and/or unaffected by these considerations?").
Such questions may be countered with other questions — How else could his name have been transliterated? Since the Ukrainian language has no letter "g", but only the letter "h", should the Department of State have nonetheless rendered the given name of a Ukrainian political prisoner held in Russia using that name's Russian "g" form?

4) Not all arguments have opposing sides. In the same manner as one would not yield equal time to proponents of apartheid or genocide, so should one not consider as propaganda the rendering of a political prisoner's given name in the proper transliteration of his native country's language.

5) Leaving further details regarding Sentsov for the next round, one additional key point needs to be raised per its mention in the header for this section — Wikipedia house style. A visit to thematically-unrelated, but otherwise instructive and revealing discussion at Talk:J. J. Watt#Requested move 2 December 2016 and the subsequent move review overturning the original decision, establishes the predominance of Wikipedia's house style over WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Thus, it would be fully within Wikipedia:Neutral point of view guidelines to indicate that the transliteration of Oleh Sentsov's given name is indicated according to Wikipedia's house style, per WP:UKRAINIANNAMES, which takes precedence over the transliteration inconsistencies elsewhere. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:17, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Subdivisions, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Crimea Task Force and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:17, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize Roman Spinner, you seem to be a nice guy, but I have got an impression that you want to have the article renamed does not matter what. In the absence of policy-based argument, you started to bring in tons of irrelevant arguments, and did not stop even when you were pointed out multiple times that most of your arguments are not, in fact, policy based. Of course in the end we all can get tired and stop responding, and may be then you can get your way, but it would be much better for everybody that you accept consensus and stop.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thank you Ymblanter for your reply and for your kind words. None of my comments is intended as anti-Russian on a general basis as I have great respect for Russian culture and have some Russian ancestry. As you can tell, I initiated neither the original nomination nor the current renewal, however, once the discussion was underway, it would have been remiss of me not to put forth all the arguments I can muster on behalf of this specific case, with which I had never been involved before.
Much of our policy here is, indeed, consensus-based and if consensus does find that my arguments are inapplicable, then the vote, if such a vote is again initiated, will not favor my presentations.
I also do not hold out much, if any, hope that "in the end we all can get tired and stop responding, and may be then you can get your way", due to the traditionally low turnout for such topics, but also because even in the unlikely happenstance of another vote in which 20 Wikipedians agree with me, there will probably be 10 or so who will disagree and the outcome will be another "no consensus".
WP:Consensus may change but, in practical terms, at least for the foreseeable future, these arguments will have to stand here as historical evidence. It may very well be that no one else will be interested in responding and the matter will be over — until someone may decide to raise it again.
In the meantime, however, I feel obligated to respond to any future posting which may present arguments that require a response. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:58, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Links to discussions associated with the above "Requested move 21 October 2016"[edit]

As indicated in the above-templated banner, directly below section header "Requested move 21 October 2016", a subsequent move review discussion resulted in returning the main title header from Oleh Sentsov to its initial form, Oleg Sentsov. For the record, when this matter comes up again for argumentation in 2017, here is the link for that move review discussion and, also, here is the link to the discussion contesting the deletion of the redirect "Oleg Sentsov" which was preventing the move of "Oleh Sentsov" back to "Oleg Sentsov". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hunger strike[edit]

https://www.screendaily.com/news/imprisoned-ukrainian-filmmaker-oleg-sentsov-12-days-into-hunger-strike/5129670.article Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should be added.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ECHR case[edit]

Press statement of the European Court of Human Rights 25.07.2018

"(title) Court decides on medical care interim measure for Oleg Sentsov, calls on him to end hunger strike

The European Court of Human Rights has today decided on an interim measure in the case of imprisoned film director Oleg Sentsov, calling on Russia to provide him with appropriate treatment in an institutionalised medical setting. The Court also invited Mr Sentsov to end his hunger strike and to accept any life-saving treatment offered. …"----Bancki (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There really isn't much information in the article regarding the hunger strike, which I can't help but to find a bit peculiar given that it went on for so long? I in any case therefore did some digging for more information on the topic, and among others found the following articles which could perhaps be used;

https://www.france24.com/en/20180821-jailed-filmmaker-oleg-sentsov-day-100-russia-hunger-strike-ukraine-crimea-putin

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/rights-activists-raise-alarm-on-100th-day-sentsov-hunger-strike-62602

And according to the following article from September 11, he had by the writing moment reached the 120th day of his hunger strike, which I believe should be mentioned in the article as it gives the older number of days, 87, which, at least at the time of September 11, was obviously no longer the correct number of days: https://themoscowtimes.com/news/crimean-filmmaker-issues-will-on-120th-day-of-hunger-strike-cousin-says-62847

Thank you. Okama-San (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 2021 - Updated article to correct the from Russian-based Oleg Sentsov to Ukrainian-based Oleh Sentsov[edit]

FYI today I updated [7] this article's text: I changed Oleg Sentsov -> Oleh Sentsov. The reason for this is becaue the correct way of writing this filmmaker's name is Oleh Sentsov not Oleg Sentsov. This is because the correct transliteration of Ukrainian name Олег in English is Oleh, while the correct transliteration of Russian name Олег in English is Oleg, but this filmmaker's name is Ukrainian not Russian, hence Oleh should be used in English. See now the journalist in this Deadline article specifically calls that out saying "Ukrainian filmmaker Oleh (not Oleg) Sentsov is back..." (i.e. Deadline's journalist specifically calls out that's it's Oleh not Oleg, see https://deadline.com/2021/08/oleh-sentsov-getting-life-back-after-release-from-russian-prison-making-wild-90s-ukraine-story-rhino-venice-1234823199/ ).

So in summary the article's text has been corrected from the incorrect Oleg Sentsov to the correct Oleh Sentsov, but that's just the text of the article; obviously the article name itself should be moved to correct title Oleh Sentsov at some point in the future to match the aritcle name as well.--73.8.106.93 (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "corr3ect" name. What we are using is the most common name in English. In 2016, there was a discussion which is still on this page, and the consensus was trhat Oleg Sentsov is the most common name. The consensus could have changed since, but to probe this you would need to open a new move request.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter I understand your point above, but everything you said above is about renaming the article. I did not make a request to rename the article, I merely corrected the name in the article itself. Moreover, you have reverted all updates I have done [8] even though maybe 20% were correcting Oleg Sentsov -> Oleh Sentsov, while 80% were simply non-contentious improvements to the article which had nothing to do with the name Oleg/Oleh but instead were about updating the sctructure of the intro paragraph and the section "Films").--73.8.106.93 (talk) 16:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the article determines how the person is referred to in the article. If one wants to change the spelling, one needs to move the article first.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:16, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning 25 vs 75, if you want 75% of your edit stand do not make the 25%.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter I have now removed all my changes relating to Oleh/Oleg throughout the article [9]. All remaining updates are non-contentious updates aimed at improving article's intro paragraph and "Film" section, please stop reveting non-contentious updates.--73.8.106.93 (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 August 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 19:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – He uses 'Oleh', we should respect this [10], [11] 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)—blindlynx 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:ABOUTSELF. Personally, unless it's a situation of WP:NAMECHANGES, I think it's perfectly fine to title articles how the subject prefers them. This is an exemplary case for that, it's a difference of only one letter, so I don't see any reason to not follow what the subject prefers, even if it may not be the WP:COMMONNAME. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are plenty of reliable sources referring to him as Oleg. ABOUTSELF is about people where COMMONNAME is not clear, here it is clear unless someone proves the opposite.--Ymblanter (talk) 00:21, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The relevant policy is WP:SPNC For minor spelling variations (capitalization, diacritics, transliteration, punctuation and spacing after initials, etc.): when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed —blindlynx 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and estar8806. Oleh Sentsov is indisputably Ukrainian, not Russian, and "Oleh" is the English transliteration of his name as pronounced in Ukrainian, while "Oleg" is the English transliteration of his name as pronounced in Russian. An example of a notable (Chess Grandmaster) Ukrainian who went so far as to submit his own Russian-form name to English Wikipedia's WP:RM for a move to the name's Ukrainian form (Vassily Ivanchuk → Vasyl Ivanchuk) may be found at Talk:Vasyl Ivanchuk#Requested move 18 April 2020. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Plenty of reliable sources spell his name Oleh. If not a majority, then enough that there’s not only a single commonly used spelling. The guidelines quoted above give enough weight that we should use his preferred spelling, especially since it’s used professionally, and associated with his film Rhino in its own publicity and on authoritative sources IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, and the majority of the award sites linked in the article. This seems to indicate that SPNC applies.  —Michael Z. 04:22, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Sentsov was a popular director both in Russian and Ukrainian cultural space before Russian annexation of Crimea and his arrest, so while then he might have been more tolerant of widespread Russian spelling of his name it's not surprising that now it's being associated with the regime that imprisoned and tortured him. Cloud200 (talk) 10:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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