Talk:Neocatechumenal Way

type = Cult/Sect?

There was an edit that looked like vandalism, adding "Cult/Sect" to the "Type" in the article. Rather than simply undoing that, I'll paste the references here, in case anyone thinks they should be added to the article properly. MaxWestEsq (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC) | type = Cult/Sect

References

There are two issues with the above edit. The first is the reliability of the source. A webpage called the Cult Education Institute whose main purpose is to call everything a cult, including multiple Christian denominations and various recognized groups within the catholic church, is republishing an opinion piece. This does not meet the minimum standards for a reputable source, especially when the claim in the article is nonsensical. A catholic sect cannot be approved and recognized by the Holy See. If we are to include a type in the page summary we should follow the categorization in Template:Catholic_laity which lists an association. Ncwfl (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

The Neocatechumenal Way is not recognized as an association, even if, being an itinerary carried out in small communities, there is an associative phenomenon. A fundamental commentary on the point is done by H.E. Msgr. Juan Ignacio Arrieta, secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, that you all can find at EWTN website at location https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/neocatechumenal-ways-statutes-1266. Particularly relevant is the statement: "There is no need to deny that the Neocatechumenal Way in fact clearly consists of a grouping of persons:.... Nevertheless, we must emphasize that this phenomenon, in the case of the Way, is not of an associative type." So much so that now the Holy See to include the Way and other new realities in their large gatherings, distinguishes between "Movements, New Communities, Associations and Lay Aggregations" The Neocatechumenal Way fits better in the New Communities realm, that however are not Associations. Msgr Arrieta explains well the reason. Advocateoftherota (talk) 04:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the previous poster that Prof. Arrieta's analysis of what the Neocat Way is, is probably the most reliable. With respect to reliability of sources, the National Catholic Reporter (which is nicknamed in some Catholic circles the "Distorter") is also not super-reliable and has a history of strong biases in its "reporting". The Neocat Way operates legitimately within the Church (under statutes formally approved by the Vatican, as Prof. Arrieta notes), and like many Catholic Church organizations, it has supporters and critics, so it is more correct to say that its critics have accused it of being cult-like than actually classifying it as a cult, which most sources do not do. Encyclopedia.com describes it as a "loosely organized Catholic renewal and catechetical apostolate" which sounds about right; it's definitely not an "association" which in the Church would require a specific setup that this organization does not have, and sources seem evenly divided on whether it is or is not a "movement". It also makes sense to view it as a "New Community" given that Pope Francis addresses it as such. TheBlinkster (talk) 02:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the aforementioned comments. NCW has been recognized by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church since its beginning. It may be hard to capture its nature in a single word/phrase (there has been a discussion in the past as whether it's charism, association, missionary initiative, movement, foundation, etc.). Canonically it may fit a category that may be not clear for a non-canonist, but Msgr. Arrieta makes it more accessible in his description. Since "itinerary of Christian formation/initiation" is again a very narrow category, "New Communities" should be a good fit that does justice to the official stand of the Catholic Church on the NCW. "Sect/cult" are opinions, not facts, and as such should not appear in the infobox. CathAZP (talk) 21:09, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I want to clarify that “new communities” is not canonical terminology. I mentioned it to underline that the Holy See used the term “new communities” to distinguish from associations and movements. As Msgr. Arrieta well explains, the essence of the Neocatechumenal Way is not its associative element. Msgr. Arrieta states that the “grouping of persons” within the Neocatechumenate does not create new juridical relations among the participants, exactly like it happens in a school. He continues saying “In these situations there certainly appears a system of stable relations among the students who follow the courses over a period of years. However, this does not mean that the students establish relationships of a juridical nature among themselves, however intense these human relations may be. On the other hand, for example, in a language school, a definite program of teaching has to be followed, and those responsible for carrying it out, the professors and the directors of the school, must keep to a methodology already clearly established, accepting the obligations which follow from the respective positions of formation or of direction which each occupy.” https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/neocatechumenal-ways-statutes-1266

This seems to me the reason of the recognition of the Neocatechumenal Way by St. John Paul II as a “itinerary of catholic formation”; this is the definition that, according to the Pope and Msgr. Arrieta better expresses the Way. In this way it should be categorized also on Wikipedia. Advocateoftherota (talk) 23:09, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, canonically the Neocatechumenal Way is not categorized as a "New Community." I simply agree that this description is fitting for an infobox.

If one were to speak in canonical terms, they would not be accessible to an average reader (not good for an infobox, though very proper in some particular contexts). The way in which Msgr. Arieta explains some nuanced differences between different groupings of persons makes the term "New Communities" a fitting description: while being clear in my opinion to an average reader, it is not confusing or inaccurate from a canonical perspective.

Anyway, there are no arguments supporting "cult/sect" since September. I think it's time to take it off again. Hopefully we won't witness too many infantile reverts. CathAZP (talk) 22:26, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

New Lead Paragraph

I have been working on cleaning up the article. I would like to improve its quality in order to remove the tags at the top of the page. I would like to go through the article section by section and propose to the community what I hope are improvements to tone clarity, and access to additional sources. Please take a look at the proposed lead paragraph in my a sandbox. I hope users are familiar with wikipedia policies on WP:TONE, WP:PST, WP:NPOVHOW, etc..., and we can together improve this article.

Overall my goal for these groups of edits are to put in more common language the definitions and descriptions of the Neocatechumenal way to improve accessibility. Ncwfl (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I went ahead an implemented the changes. Ill keep working on the rest of the page by section in the above sandbox. Ncwfl (talk) 19:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm unsure how to help update this article, however under leadership and governance there is a mention of the 1st Scrutiny and it references the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way specifically ART2 19 1 & 2 which state " § 1. The first phase of the Neocatechumenate is the precatechumenate, which is a time of kenosis75 in order to learn to walk in humility.76 It is divided into two steps:

1st. In the first step, which goes from the initial catecheses until the first scrutiny, and which lasts approximately two years, the neocatechumens learn the language of the Bible by celebrating each week the Word of God, with simple themes that run throughout the whole of Scripture, such as water, rock, lamb, etc. The Word of God, the Eucharist and the community gradually help the neocatechumens to be emptied of false concepts of themselves and of God and to descend into their reality of being sinners in need of conversion, rediscovering the gratuitousness of the love of Christ, who forgives them and loves them.

In the concluding celebration of the first scrutiny, after the inscription of the name, they ask the Church to help them mature in faith in order to do works of eternal life,77 and then they receive the sign of the glorious cross of Christ, which illuminates the salvific role of the cross in the life of each person.

2nd. In the second step, of similar length, the neocatechumens celebrate the great stages of the history of salvation - Abraham, Exodus, Desert, Promised Land, etc. - and a time is given to them so that they may prove to themselves the sincerity of their intention to follow Jesus Christ78 in the light of his Word: “You cannot serve both God and money” (Mt 6:24).

In the concluding celebration of the second scrutiny, they renew before the Church the renunciation of the devil and they manifest the will to serve God alone. Thereafter, they study and celebrate the main biblical figures - Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, etc. - in the light of Christ.

73 See CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION, Ratio Fundamentalis Institutionis Sacerdotalis (March 19, 1985), nn. 20–101.

74 JOHN PAUL II, Apostolic Exhortation, Pastores Dabo Vobis, 68.

75 See Phil 2:7.

76 See Mic 6:8.

77 See 1 Jn 3:14–15; Eph 2:10.

78 See Lk 14:25–33.

Statute – Final Approved Text – June 2008 13

§ 2. The scrutinies, inspired by the catechumenal itinerary of the RCIA, help the neocatechumens in their way of conversion, respecting the conscience and the internal forum, in accordance with canonical norms.79" However in the wikipidia artical it states that the 1st scrutiny is a PUBLIC CONFESSION to see how devout members are in following the Necatechumenal way. This is incorrect.

As the statutes state, it is not public, follows the canonical norms in respecting conscience and the internal forum and is NOT meant to see how DEVOUT members are. It is to help bring catechumens to discover the reality of their lives in order to convert and live a Christian Life in full communion with Christ and the Church. WJS714 (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ncwfl, the edits you've made have taken away some web-archive links, e.g. the statues. Maybe your sandbox edition was based on a version before the pass of the bot? CathAZP (talk) 20:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this! I fixed it.Ncwfl (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2023

Please change ""Public confessions"" under Leadership and Governance to ""Private Confessions respecting the conscience and the internal forum, in accordance with canonical norms"" This noted in the article referenced for the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal way WJS714 (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@WJS714, I have restored the section to a version unaffected by disruptive editing (with corrected references to both primary and secondary sources; Cardinal O'Malley seems to be one of the very few ordinaries that make their schedule and activity almost completely public; there may be other bishops on social medias, but quoting Card. Sean seems sufficient to me), since the change you've proposed is still inaccurate.

This paragraph still does not fit into the section in which it is included, and I did not want to trash it. Does anyone have any proposals on where to move it? CathAZP (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2023 (2)

Under leadership and governance please change "so that they may prove the sincerity of their intention to follow the Neocatechumenal Way" to "so that they may prove to themselves the sincerity of their intention to follow Jesus Christ78 in the light of his Word: “You cannot serve both God and money” (Mt 6:24)" WJS714 (talk) 20:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)