Talk:Heartless (Kanye West song)

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Good articleHeartless (Kanye West song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Good topic starHeartless (Kanye West song) is part of the 808s & Heartbreak series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 10, 2008Articles for deletionKept
October 6, 2021Good article nomineeListed
December 31, 2021Good topic candidatePromoted
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 22, 2021.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Kanye West performed "Heartless" with altered lyrics at a youth ball for Barack Obama's first inauguration?
Current status: Good article

I heard on teh radio...[edit]

Someone else was singing it...like in a more Alternative Rock sort of way. Who is this artist and where are they mentioned in the article?--76.174.34.216 (talk) 13:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ammonia Avenue sample?[edit]

Doesn't this track sample the title track from Ammonia Avenue by The Alan Parsons Project? --Nerd42 (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It definitely sounds like they interpolated the synthesizer riff that starts at 02:30 into the song. However, they didn't credit The Alan Parsons Project and they haven't been sued for it yet, so officially it won't go down as an interpolation or a sample. Aoa8212 (talk) 19:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only report of the song having a sample is this article:

http://theconversation.com/friday-essay-the-sounds-of-kanye-west-54169.

Despite the suspiciously similar organ sound, this hasn't been mentioned in the article yet. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 21:31, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Heartless (Kanye West song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vaticidalprophet (talk · contribs) 05:43, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Picking this up. This is a longer article, and a full review may take some time. My quick impression is positive. (🎵 In the night I hear them talk, the coldest story ever told... 🎵) Vaticidalprophet 05:43, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First comments in the first couple of sections:

  1. "NSFW" seems included in the fact the photos he posted were nude (see WP:PLEONASM) and is somewhat distracting slang.
 Done --K. Peake 08:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I think The song is the only one on the album that contains rapping from West, while rap features are contributed to "Amazing" and "See You in My Nightmares" by Lil Wayne and Young Jeezy, respectively would sound better switched from passive to active voice; I'm not one of the passive-voice-purgers, but it's a bit unexpected here, if that makes sense.
 Done if this looks better? --K. Peake 08:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. For seeking out a minimalist direction sonically, West directed his team to bring unique drum machines to Avex Recording Studio -- "for"? (And what was unique about the drum machines?)
Removed the word for, but the uniqueness of the drum machines is explained by the following sentence about them being reprogrammed. --K. Peake 08:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. "Upbeat pop" at the beginning of "Composition and lyrics" is WP:SEAOFBLUE; it reads a little too much like it would go to a subgenre called "upbeat pop".
 Done I removed the wikilink on upbeat --K. Peake 08:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vaticidalprophet 12:25, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vaticidalprophet I have responded to your initial comments... didn't know because I had not checked Wiki too much due to work. --K. Peake 08:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New reviewer needed per discussion here. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:22, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Review will not be completed[edit]

As noted above, the reviewer will not be returning—discussion has been archived and is now here—and two-and-a-half-month attempt to get a new reviewer by changing the status to 2nd opinion has not gotten any results. Accordingly, I have returned the nomination to the pool of those awaiting a reviewer without any loss of seniority. I hope it will be picked up reasonably quickly. The next review will take place on a different page from this one. Pinging nominator K. Peake, so they know what is happening. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:34, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@BlueMoonset: I fully understand this since after the review has been on second opinion status for so long, even I have started to get fed up. Thank you for dropping the review efficiently, though I would like to ask when this does get taken on, will it not be listed as having failed on the previous GAN by the reviewer due to the original one quitting? --K. Peake 08:20, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
K. Peake, since this review was not completed, there is no failure involved, and none listed on the article's talk page. It is effectively starting over, as if this review never happened. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BlueMoonset Now the article has passed as a GA, I have not included this review in the history since there was no result; do you believe I am correct to do so then? --K. Peake 07:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
K. Peake: yes. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Heartless (Kanye West song)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zmbro (talk · contribs) 12:37, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I got you. – zmbro (talk) 12:37, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Infobox and lead[edit]

  • "It was passed on to West from the recording of Jay-Z's eleventh studio album, The Blueprint 3 (2009)" I'm lost. Passed on from what?
  •  Done if this is specific enough? --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They often placed emphasis on his subject matter, while some critics praised the song's composition." → "Some praised its composition, while others emphasized its subject matter."
  •  Done with changes, especially since the subject matter emphasis is a part of "his performance" they focused on. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the 2010 BMI Pop Awards, it stood among the Award Winning Songs." Looking in the body it looks like it won more awards than this. Couldn't we generalize it?
  • I'm not sure what I should use for generalization since various types of awards were won; I solely listed this because I believe it is the most notable due to this song being pop, but if you have any suggestions for generalizing then tell me. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background and recording[edit]

  • The first point I made above is somewhat made clearer here but it should be made much clearer in the lead. You don't wanna confuse the reader only three sentences in.
  • Shouldn't release info be kept for the actual release section?
  •  Not done the release parts here are only brief mentions when it is relevant, such as the single release date before West shared an alternate version which is not appropriate in the release section due to being only on his blog. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going along with the previous comment, recording info is mentioned after release info, definitely doesn't flow that well chronologically
  •  Not done the section is titled background and recording so the background info should be first, plus recording stuff does not tie in with those parts and would disrupt the flow. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Composition and lyrics[edit]

  • Audio sample looks good
  • Rest looks solid
  • Amazing on both parts!! --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Release and reception[edit]

  • Honestly solid. No complaints here

Music video[edit]

  • "Before the technique of rotoscoped animation was used for the video, Williams shot the footage of West." Rearrange this so it reads the footage was shot then rotoscoped over
  • "after real people were recorded" wouldn't this be 'filmed'?
  • Link Art director and Visual effects supervisor
  • "On November 7, 2008, the music video was released." → "The music video was released on November 7, 2008."
  • You should mention the 2009 awards/noms before the Rolling Stone bit for flow' sake

Commercial performance[edit]

  • Looks good

Live performances[edit]

  • I find it kind of ironic that he felt proud to perform in front of Obama, who not even a few months later called him a jackass after he did that one thing :P
  • Haha I still remember that interview, even though I like both West and Obama! --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "medley of the song and "Pinocchio Story"" → "medley of "Heartless" and "Pinocchio Story""
  • "eight number" → "eighth number"?
  •  Done I seem to often forget adding little words like that on the end when typing quickly --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances in media[edit]

  • Love that South Park ep. I've loved all their Kanye parodies, especially "The Hobbit" xD
  • Oh man, that Gayfish joke went absolutely viral back in the day... --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "interpolates the song's chorus" we talking about "Heartless"?
  • Shouldn't some of these be in the covers section?
  • Only The Girl on the Train one, so I moved that now. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cover versions[edit]

  • "In early August of 2009," → "In early August 2009,"

Credits and personnel[edit]

  • Looks good

Charts/Certifications/Release history[edit]

  • Looks good

The Fray version[edit]

  • The guideline does mention that "if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes" and since this is so far down the article, I believe there is no violation. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Audio sample looks good
  • "airplay at radio" → "airplay on radio"
  •  Done with a change --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should move the chart stuff into the release para
  •  Not done reception refers to both the critical and commercial types --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kris Allen version[edit]

  • Same question about the links here
  • I still don't think so per earlier, also if a user goes to this page specifically to read about the Allen version then the links are sort of helpful remaining here. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we add a photo of Allen?
  • Not appropriate, as more than enough space is taken up by the infobox and sample. --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Audio sample again looks good

References[edit]

  • Make sure they all use first/last and not author (noticed a few)
  • Make sure everything's archived (quite a few missing)
  •  Done the only ones not archived are ones in templates that can't be and don't need to --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consequence was still Consequence of Sound in 2015 so fix that (ref 111)

Final thoughts[edit]

  • Well-written article. Should be a GA in no time. This is actually one of his songs that got me into him back in 2012. Kept this on loop my entire HS sophomore year. I remember hearing the Fray's version first so I was surprised to learn West wrote it. – zmbro (talk) 14:50, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Zmbro Thanks for your dedication of time and kind comments, I have now implemented the necessary changes! --K. Peake 19:34, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kyle Peake Sick, happy to ✓ Pass. Ping me when you nominate 808s for good topic and I'll happily support. – zmbro (talk) 19:38, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zmbro: Just added the nom now, also I'd recommend using article history for the talk pages of GAs like I edited in. --K. Peake 07:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
2009 portrait of Barack Obama
2009 portrait of Barack Obama

Improved to Good Article status by Kyle Peake (talk). Self-nominated at 06:33, 7 October 2021 (UTC).[reply]

I began reviewing, and will finish later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting song told with love to detail (even what he wore at a certain event ...), on fine sources, no copyvio obvious. I don't known why you don't simply say: "It is set in common time, and A minor". The hook idea - mentioning the Obama seems good, but I see no reason to picture the well-known president again, - better the singer, no? My take:
ALT2a: ... that Kanye West performed his song "Heartless" for Barack Obama's first inauguration at the Be the Change Youth Ball, with altered lyrics?
Let's leave some curiosity for what was altered. Is the ball well-known, or could we just say "a youth ball"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt I do agree that it was too much detail initially being specific about how the lyrics were altered and the ball is not the same for every inauguration, therefore I proposed ALT3 with both of these edited if that looks fine to you? In the actual article prose, I haven't simplified things to what you mentioned since it should be made clear that A minor is the key and the picture of Obama can be kept because it's from the performance's year of 2009 and the presidency most certainly aged him over his eight years. --K. Peake 16:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! - Most readers I know would know what common time and A minor mean, and those who don't and click will get to know that common time is a time signature, and A minor a key, so I believe it's a bit over-explaining. In a Beethoven symphony, you'd just say "in A major". Just for consideration. - For about the same reason, how about:
ALT3a:... that Kanye West performed "Heartless" at a youth ball for Barack Obama's first inauguration with altered lyrics?
because Obama really doesn't need another link ;)
I approve the ALT3s, but suggest - to the prep builder - not to take the image. We have many more images suggested than we can take, and such a familiar one isn't really DYK material, imho. Next time, please word a later ALT here below the nomination, or the concersation makes little sense. Thank you for the music! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT 3a To Prep 7, without image. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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