Talk:Family of Barack Obama/Archive 4

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Grandmother

Moved from Talk: Barack Obama

It would be preferable to say that Obama's paternal grandmother gave birth to 3 children, rather than that she "gave" her husband three children. As it states: "Also known as Akumu Nyanjoga (c. 1918–2006).[71][72][73][74] Barack Obama's paternal grandmother, and the second wife of Hussein Onyango Obama. She gave Onyango three children: daughters Sarah and Auma, and son Barack (Barack Obama's father).[75] Her father was named Njango and she was born and raised in the Western Kenyan village of Karabondi.[74][76] In his memoir Dreams from My Father, her grandson wrote that she was miserable in her marriage and abandoned her husband and children..."

Particularly because she was miserable in her marriage and left the children. Wives do not "give" their husbands children. Please update to the current century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.225.206 (talk) 04:06, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done Good point. Tvoz/talk 07:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Removal of attributed content from two reliable sources

I would like to highlight that a fellow editor removed content supported by two reliable sources. Here is the reversion. In the edit summary the reverting editor leaves as an edit summary:

he had never met him

— TheRedPenOfDoom

However, if we look at the content that I had added, I never wrote that Barack Obama met his grandfather. The quote is from his book, Dreams from My Father, and leaves out other potential content. Additionally, the quote is about the image that Barack Obama had of his grandfather, and not that he had met him. I believe that it was improperly removed.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Obama barely knew his father and had never met this granfather. The image that Obama had created in his own mind as related in a memior is not really relevant for an encyclopedia article section about the granfather. It is a fictional reflection of Obama only. (plus the fact that you are quoting it from D'Souza and the "nigger" comment interview leads one to believe that there is something rather more POV involved in the content. ) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:15, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
The explanation given here is more reasonable and understandable than that given by the edit summary. Thanks for the clarification. I would hope that good faith would have been assumed, but it appears that it was not and for that I am not happy. The quote is from the book, rewritten in the D'Souza article, written by President Obama.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:21, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Outside of the Corsis of the world, anything of Obama's that D'Souza re-wrote would be as unreliable a source as you're going to see. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:58, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
So because it is rewritten in an article by D'Souza, even though it was first written in Obama's book, by the President himself, it is to be considered as if the President never wrote it at all?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
The content that was proposed is content that has its focus on Obama and what and how he thinks rather than on a neutral examination and determination of the supposed subject of the section of the article. Particularly as Obama's analysis is from an memior and not any type of biography/analytical discussion of his grandfather. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:55, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps then the quote of the Barack Obama's step-Grandmother should be removed as well?
It reads:

Even from the time that he was a boy, your grandfather Onyango was strange. It is said of him that he had ants up his anus, because he could not sit still.

It can be argued that it does not provide a neutral examination.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:08, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
The difference here is that Obama is not providing his own analysis, but recounting specifically analysis of someone who knew the person. The question isnt so much any POV issues (the POV is clearly an analysis attributed to someone who knew the subject - although i guess we dont have outside confirmation that her claim that the view was widespread is true) but whether or not the content is particularly helpful to the reader to provide insight into the subject. I don't have any particularly strong feeling one way or another. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:07, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Ugly trees need pruning

This should be pretty self-explanatory, a poorly-formatted "tree" that duplicates family trees already in the article. I'm not going to sit here tapping "undo" all night though. Tarc (talk) 01:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, but, as I said before, this tree is much more complete than the other trees on the page: it shows ancestors who are mentioned nowhere else in the page. You have deleted new information! If the tree looks "atrocious", as you told me, just find a way to do it better, instead of deleting it!
Keckel (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
I have gone back and removed this, and ask kindly that it is left out for good. What relevant information there is about Obama's genealogy is already in the better-formatted section further down. Besides, this is an article on family, not genealogy. Obviously the former engenders some coverage of the latter, but not to that distant extent. Tarc (talk) 13:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Genealogy–What?!

I am sorry, but can someone explain to me why there is a genealogy article and family-tree about Barack Obama's family on Wikipedia? How many other people in this depository are to have similar, generally trivial, articles? Just this one line of Dunham/Singletaries would connect to at least fifty (that I know of)–if not hundreds of–people in this Wikipedia. Are we to list this information of all these cousins to the upteenth degree of Obama's as relatives in the article, and their respective articles, too? I am a genealogist and know of what I speak. This just happens to be one of my wife's lines. Does she, as an eleventh half-cousin once-removed, get a line in the article too? How many other presidents, celebrities, corporate moguls, etc. will get their similar articles?

This article violates WWIN and (for most of its entries) WNotable.

Has this article ever been thru AfD? GenQuest "Talk to Me" 23:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes there have in fact been several discussions (look under the "Milestones" heading. The most recent one is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Family of Barack Obama (2nd nomination). And this particular subject has an article because there have in fact been numerous reliable sources that have found it worthy to write significant content about the subject that got published in reliable sources. If the same were true of your wife, she too would be eligible for an article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are created by volunteers who spend time writing about what interests them, not necessarily what is actually important, and so we have a gazillion articles about porn stars while many articles about heads of state from non English speaking countries are one line stubs. It is part of the selection bias and will likely remain eternally an issue for Wikipedia.
The various Wikiprojects attempt to direct the workflow of volunteers by identifying articles according to their importance and their current status so that for example "stub" level articles about important subjects can be located by those who care.
However, unless some foundation starts an academy that hires wiki-writers and would therefore be able to treat the writer as an employee that could be assigned specific tasks rather than the volunteer bias, "trivial" "pop culture" and "controversial" articles are all more likely to receive more attention than their actual importance warrants. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I have some unpopular ideas involving hit counters, badges, challenges, and top editor status that could steer the bias, if not towards what's truly important, at least what the readers want to read about. That kind of stuff is best discussed over at WP:VP, User talk:Jimbo, or at a local pub. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Self-published source

Unless if someone can verify the author's credentials, then I'm planning on removing all references to Ancestors Of Barack Hussein Obama: 50 Generations (by Lorina Boliq) as it is a self-published book by CreateSpace. FallingGravity (talk) 03:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't shed a tear if the entire "Selected genealogical relationships" gallery was axed, honestly. Tarc (talk) 13:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
<joke on>Should I start a new section and administrative report called "bully editors ganging up to delete sourced content"?</joke off> - Wikidemon (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Michelle's paternal grandmother

The article in different places has Johnson and Cohen as Michelle's paternal grandmother. Obviously only one can be correct. --Weazie (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

re: Samson Obama

"he was also accused of, but not prosecuted for, sexual assault".

Is this really relevant, and if it is, is it relevant that the victim was a 12 or 13 y/o child (depends on month of incident). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.236.161.4 (talk) 04:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Update to Obama Great-Uncle

Ralph Waldo Emerson Dunham, Jr, the full great-uncle of Barack Obama, died on 18 Dec 2012, presumably at his home in Springfield, Fairfax, Virginia [Obituary, Washington Post, 25 December 2012]. He has been or will be interred at Arlington National Cemetery [memorial ceremony announced for 25 March, subject to change, see Arlington Cemetery web site]. Col Dunham was a survivor of Operation Overlord, inserted into Europe with his unit on D-Day plus 4. Following the war he continued in government service with the US Department of Education and as an Army Reservist. Please update the article appropriately. Genehisthome (talk) 06:11, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 April 2013

Please add middle initial to Sasha Obama's full name. It should read "Natasha M. Obama" This is based on the recent Obama tax return available at http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/complete_return_president_obama_2012.pdf Jamccull (talk) 22:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done. I wonder what the initial stands for... Michelle, maybe? I'll continue looking for sources. FallingGravity (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
i am going to undo that. without a third party source, that is an improper use of primary source documents providing personal information about a minor. WP:BLP -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The middle initial is found on every one of Obama's tax returns featured online, so I doubt there's been some filing error. However, since this might be a BLP issue, I understand your concern. FallingGravity (talk) 03:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

African American and Kenyan?

I'm sorry but either you're using African American to refer to black Americans overall (and well as African Americans who are not black?) or the Kenyan (Luo) heritage should go. I would also support "European American" being added to his heritage, but he simply isn't descended from slaves (as African Americans stereotypically are) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.189.66.149 (talk) 15:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

do you have reliable sources to validate your analysis of this situation? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
There were free blacks, mostly in the north, who were African American. I am not sure of the point that the user was trying to make. GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The dog gets more WP:WEIGHT than the daughters?

Wow. Bo (dog) gets an article, Malia and Sasha get redirected here. Was this by design? K7L (talk) 01:36, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the articles within Wikipedia are all placed there by design, not by chance. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Dead link fix

Ref #139 is dead but same file can be found at http://www.thedunhamhouse.com/obamatree.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.213.58.196 (talk) 05:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2014

Please change “African American” to “Black”Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

Term 'African-American' is remnant of Jim Crow attitudes that perpetuate racial stereotypes, segregation: Charles Mosley http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/02/the_term_african-american_is_a.html

Omusafiri (talk) 13:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. You should read Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race (and likely several other relevant threads found in this search result) first. Best, Sam Sailor Sing 13:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Colonists

Please provide documentation for the claim that the family reaches back to the 'colonists' (WHICH 'colonists'?) - "... colonists and..." which was added on 7/15/2014. The current reference, the NY Times article, refers to the mother of Dolphus Shields, "Melvinia Shields, who was about 8 years old when she arrived on his farm sometime around 1852." Isn't 'colonist' someone who lived during the previous century? MaynardClark (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2014

Can the following be added to External Links?

Nicole.Paull (talk) 19:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Done — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 17:02, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2014

Please add the following information to the list of Barack Obama's maternal relatives, after the entry for Ralph Dunham:

Fulmoth Kearney (circa 1829-1878) was a third great-grandfather of Barack Obama. Born circa 1829 in Moneygall, Ireland, he emigrated to Ohio via New York in 1850, making him the most recent immigrant on the maternal side of Barack Obama's family tree. Fulmoth married Charlotte Holloway and raised a family which included three Kearney daughters (including Mary Ann) who married three Dunham brothers. He and his wife are buried in Fairview Cemetery in Labette County, Kansas, where descendants placed a headstone in 2014.[1] Around the same time, a photo of him was discovered.[2][3]

References

  1. ^ Smolenyak, Megan. "Fulmoth Kearney, President Obama's Irish Immigrant Ancestor, Gets a Tombstone". Huffington Post. Retrieved December 22, 2014.
  2. ^ Smolenyak, Megan. "Photo of Barack Obama's Irish Immigrant 3rd Great-Grandfather, Fulmoth Kearney, Discovered". Huffington Post. Retrieved December 22, 2014.
  3. ^ Langan, Sheila. "Historic photograph of Obama's Irish ancestor is discovered". Irish Central. Retrieved December 22, 2014.

Nicole.Paull (talk) 19:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Question: I notice that all of the paragraphs have a low-level, normally wikilinked, heading to the person they talk about. Should this request include one as well and what would the wikilink be? Fulmoth Kearney seems to be a redirect to Moneygall for an unknown reason. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 17:06, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

William the Bastard.

I was reading elsewhere that President Obama is descended from William the Conqueror aka William the Bastard (1028-1087), but the article here doesn't mention this.

Perhaps I could add something to that effect in the Distant Relations section?

It is a rather amusing factette, don't you think?

I refer to this genealogical website, which appears to have all the names in some sort of order...

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Famous_Descendants_of_William_the_Conqueror_of_England

Any objections to such an addition?

Gnu Ordure (talk) 00:34, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

We need a reliable source for this assertion, not somebody's Wikia site. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, here's an article on the The Telegraph (UK newspaper) website by Ed West, who "is a journalist and social commentator and the author of The Diversity Illusion: What We Got Wrong About Immigration & How to Set It Right," which begins:
"Question: What do Barack Obama, George Bush, Otto von Bismark, General Robert Lee, Maggie and Jake Gyllenhaal , Bill Gates, Brad Pitt, Brooke Shields, Josh Brolin, Christopher Reeve, Justin Timberlake, Richard Gere, Rupert Everett, Princess Diana, George Washington and the Queen have in common?
Answer: They are all descendants of William the Conqueror''."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100032577/alfred-the-great-must-be-turning-in-his-grave-at-obamas-foreign-policy/
Mr West's source is the same site I referenced. There are other sites which confirm the details e.g.:
1. http://humphrysfamilytree.com/famous.thelist.html#edward.iii
President Obama is #129 in that section. Or:
2. http://humphrysfamilytree.com/Royal/Mann/obama.txt
That shows how President Obama is descended from all three of Edward III's sons.
Is that sufficient? Gnu Ordure (talk) 20:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Even if that were a reliable source, which it isn't, it also lists several other presidents, not to mention Bill Gates, Justin Timberlake, and a number of other famous people. If the list is correct, having William I as an ancestor does not seem so unusual. Neutron (talk) 01:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, it's not so unusual; I still think it's interesting, though. Gnu Ordure (talk) 20:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
How is it interesting? I don't know of a standard that exits in terms of generations and relevance, but I would think much beyond 4th cousins starts to have no relevance. In the instance above, I couldn't see anyone less than 4th cousin to Obama, so I wouldn't think they are particularly interesting or relevant for this article. If people want to find out how exactly Obama is related to various people, they can look at genealogy sites.Thelen Shar (talk) 10:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
You're conflating ancestry with cousinship, Thelen. Everyone in the US and Europe is probably cousins, but we don't all have the same ancestors (until we go back thousands of years to Mitochondrial Eve, of course). But if Obama is a direct descendant of a relatively recent ancestor such as William the Conqueror, then that's a fact worth knowing.
Incidentally, I've been investigating the claim about Obama and I'm not convinced that it's correct. So I'm not going to edit the article until I've got more information on it. Gnu Ordure (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Index

According to several people in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Obama (2nd nomination) (me included), the index at the bottom of this article was confusing. It was much too complicated by having it sorted by first name AND last name at the same time. In addition, it just seemed crowded and there wasn't much that could be done to fix it without completely scrapping the table. So I did just that. Now, the index is sorted by family name and first name separately in a three column chart. I think this is much simpler (KISS), and there is room for improvement (year of birth - year of death for each entry perhaps?). This isn't a perfect solution, but in my opinion it's much better than the old index.Tavix |  Talk  22:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Distant relations removal

This section is while interesting to some, largely useless to everyone else. Already given by 'The New York Times science writer Nicholas Wade has stated that with eleven generations leading back to their common progenitor, Samuel Hinckley, the relationship between the 43rd President and the 44th President is "genetically meaningless".[1] it is fairly obvious that while such relationships may exist, they can hardly be considered family and therefore are irrelevant to this article. Thelen Shar (talk) 10:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Wade, Nicholas (October 21, 2007). "Barack Obama – Dick Cheney – Ancestry and Genealogy – Washington – New York Times". The New York Times. Retrieved January 31, 2009.
I would not shed a tear if the entire section was axed. Tarc (talk) 13:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Thelen, Mr Wade may be correct in saying that our relationship to our distant ancestors (or cousins) is genetically meaningless. But it's not historically or socially meaningless. William the Conqueror (as discussed in the section above) was, for some reason, in a position to have millions of descendants, many of whom have been significant people in history. That is a fact which an encyclopedia such as Wiki should record.

Cousins, not so much.Gnu Ordure (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

  • I think the problem is that this section is roughly equivalent to trivia in an article where most of the other entries are closely related to Barack. This is compounded by the fact that this article is already over 104kb. Since it's been a fair amount of time without any objections, I'm going to go ahead and remove the section, without any prejudice to it being re-added if objections are then raised. Tavix |  Talk  00:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2015

Carrie Nelson's age was 80 in 2008. It has been seven years since and needs an update. Suggest changing to something like (born 1928) to avoid updating this every year. 76.88.55.253 (talk) 08:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Done Have reworded it slightly. It's a bit clunky but as we do not know her birth year, this avoids us having to do "born 1927 - 1928" Cannolis (talk) 11:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2015

sources for presidential relations of the Durham Family are inactive/lead nowhere 108.18.236.121 (talk) 03:42, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

which ones in particular? there are multiple sources and multiple Dunhams Cannolis (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2015

Please change "He has operated a liquor store" to "He works in a liquor store".

Obama's uncle Omar does not operate a liquor store. He worked at a store owned by someone else. "[Omar] worked in a small liquor store on Route 126 where locals stop in for a six-pack of beer, a bottle of wine, or scratch tickets.

"He was a great worker," said Parimal Patel, the owner of Conti Liquors, where Obama worked for the past five years." "

[1]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Operating a store means that you are working there, not that you own the store. Think of it like a heavy machinery operator, they are operating the machine, but probably don't own it. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 16:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Not correct, an operator of a store is the owner or manager, not a clerk. Omar is neither an owner nor a manager. An employee who is not a manager cannot be said to operate a store.Royalcourtier (talk) 08:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

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I have broken out Sarah Onyango Obama

This subject now has much more substance to it than when it was deleted eight years ago. I have therefore broken it out into a separate article. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:57, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

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'traced back 1400?'

What does 'traced back 1400 mean. Has it been traced back to the year 1400CE or has it somehow magically been traced back 1400 years? 114.143.123.186 (talk) 09:57, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

  • Yeah, having a glaring typo like that in the very first sentence of the article is pretty embarrassing. Would someone please fix it? 45.47.234.119 (talk) 12:25, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

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"Immediate family" or "maternal relations"

The section entitled Immediate family seems to be spousal and maternal family. 62.64.152.154 (talk) 19:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

"First Family'

The family of the president of the United States of America are just that. They have no official status, and the description of them as "the First Family of the United States" is simply untrue. There is no such thing as a "First Family". The USA is not legally a monarchy, and the family of the head of state are not princes and princess.Royalcourtier (talk) 21:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

You need to read First Family of the United States. Doug Weller talk 05:35, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

A video of Malia Obama at Lollapalooza has been getting a lot of coverage

[copyvio link redacted] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733490/Did-Malia-Obama-smoke-MARIJUANA-Lollapalooza-Explosive-video-shows-president-s-eldest-daughter-puffing-suspicious-cigarette.html

http://nypost.com/2016/08/10/malia-obama-appears-to-be-smoking-pot-at-lollapalooza/

71.182.237.109 (talk) 11:44, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

A more balanced view Malia Obama may or may not have smoked cannabis. I don't think this should be included, she's entitled to some privacy. Doug Weller talk 12:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
If the adult daughter of President of the United States committed an illegal act in public, I don't see why that person should be deserving of privacy. How many people has the Obama administration arrested for smoking medical marijuana during the many DEA raids that happened during Obama's presidency? Why should the President's daughter be exempt from the anti-marijuana laws that the President has applied to so many other people? In May 2012, the Washington Post wrote: “Obama has become more hostile to medical marijuana patients than any president in U.S. history.” Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/medical-marijuana-meets-hostility-from-obama-administration/2012/05/04/gIQA80GK2T_story.html 71.182.236.22 (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Malik Obama Citizenship

Is there any source that actually confirms that Malik Obama cannot vote in the US? It is stated without any support in the wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:448:C002:A40:28D3:E15B:5226:F9C4 (talk) 20:02, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Several sources say that he is registered to vote in the sate of Maryland. Please update article. http://nypost.com/2016/07/24/why-obamas-half-brother-says-hell-be-voting-for-donald-trump/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.135.89 (talk) 20:27, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Also, can we get a cite that he is a naturalized American? --Bertrc (talk) 13:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Gothamist, he is (or maybe used to be) a registered Democrat in Maryland. FallingGravity (talk) 15:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Malia Obama is an American citizen by birth. She can vote. No questions there. MicronesianHelper2016 (talk) 07:13, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Contradictory information about Malik Obama

The article states about Malik Obama:

"A frequent visitor to the United States,[121] and a consultant in Washington, D.C., for several months each year,[118] Malik settled in the Obamas' ancestral home, Nyang'oma Kogelo, a village of several hundred people. He prefers its slow pace to that of the city.[118] He runs a small electronics shop a half-hour's drive outside of town.[118]"

It also states

"Malik Obama is a United States citizen and has lived in Washington, D.C., since 1985. [127]"

So which is it? Does he live in his ancestral village, or does he live in Washington, D.C.? Does he run a small electronics shop in Kenya, or does he serve as a D.C. consultant on some unspecified subject? --MelanieN (talk) 04:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

He could do both. I've seen sources that say he lives in Washington but I think it must be Maryland as he is apparently registered to vote there.[1] Greater Washington perhaps. But some of this is long ago, 2004.[2] So good to remove it. Doug Weller talk 18:50, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity

"Obama's maternal heritage consists mostly of English ancestry, with much smaller amounts of German, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Swiss, and French ancestry." So why is his family's ethnicity recorded as "English-Irish American" in the information box? He is barely Irish enough to warrant a mention in the article at all, let alone to define the family as such. The O'Wikipedia force is strong here... 82.1.163.32 (talk) 23:07, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

copy editing

I began to do a little copy editing on the article without realizing there was a discussion on splitting it off. I'll leave it alone until there's a decision.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC))

Split for Malia?

There's clear consensus against creating a separate article. SarahSV (talk) 17:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is a separate article warranted yet for Malia? A new editor is attempting to create it today. —C.Fred (talk) 22:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I didn't know there was this article until C.Fred mentioned it and did his actions. But this Family article should be about family and how they are interactive. Prominent family members, mentioned as the subject of many news articles, should get their own article. Mrs. Obama and Barack Obama qualify. So does Malia. Mrs. Obama's mother doesn't qualify...too obscure. Shorwak (talk) 22:58, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose separate article for now per WP:TOOSOON. The article created by editor Shorwak also reminds me of Malia_Obama_(celebrity) which was promptly deleted. And is Malia Obama indeed a "diplomat"? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barron Trump (2nd nomination). - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 23:29, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Weak support She is now 18 and thus an adult and does have independent notability. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 23:34, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment -- I'd consider supporting if only to prevent creation of articles such as today: Malia Obama (First Daughter). But Malia does not appear to have gain any notability as of yet independent of her parent. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:41, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • No Notability is not inherited. Consider the proposed pseudo-article rewritten substituting "Smith" for "Obama" and "bus driver" for "president". Does not satisfy WP:N despite attempts to puff up sources. Johnuniq (talk) 00:03, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Lacks inherent notability. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
  • article for deletion discussion is more wise because discussing an article on another article's talk page is not a direct way of discussion. If passed, what we would be doing is deleting an article.Samswik (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Not entirely true. The AfD outcome would be to keep and merge/redirect to this article, not to delete the coverage outright. —C.Fred (talk) 21:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
No, this is speculation unless you plan to intervene and make the decision. Shorwak (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No notability outside of the context of being a member of the First Family. No in-depth separate coverage. Obviously, this could change in the future, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. —C.Fred (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Plenty of in-depth separate coverage, such as news stories where it is not about President Obama at all but solely about Malia. If taking the hard line, then even Michelle Obama would not qualify as an article because if she were not First Lady, she would either be a housewife in DC or working in Chicago in a non-descript job. Shorwak (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Shorwak, that's a remarkably sexist remark. Michelle Robinson Obama is a Harvard Law School graduate. She is very unlikely to have wound up as "a housewife" or "in a non-descript job". A former employer who mentored both of them is reported to have said, back in 2008, that he wasn't surprised to see an Obama as POTUS; he was just surprised it wasn't Michelle. --MelanieN (talk) 03:14, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose to having this discussion here because this is the talk page of another article Shorwak (talk) 03:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

  • Support a separate Malia article because there are hundreds of reliable sources establishing notability, unlike Sasha or Michelle's sister in law. Malia is working in the State Department at the US Embassy in Madrid, Spain. Shorwak (talk) 03:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

New RFC

Should Malia Obama (First Daughter) be allowed a chance to develop as an article rather than page protected and redirected to another article (Family of Barack Obama) within a few hours? Basically, does Malia Obama, who currently works for the State Department at the US Embassy in Madrid, Spain and has hundreds of reliable sources (articles) have an article?

Note: the beginnings of the article can be found if you go earlier than the redirect and about 30 references can be seen in the Malia Obama (First Daughter) talk page. 03:53, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment An attempted split of the first daughter article should have its own WP:AFD.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:00, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • No. She is not yet notable enough for her own article. The fact that she was a summer intern at the U.S. Embassy in Spain[3] should be added to the "family" article. (Done) BTW if and when we do write an article about her it should be called "Malia Obama", not "Malia Obama (First Daughter)". I assume the disambiguation was added to get around the current full-protection on Malia Obama. --MelanieN (talk) 15:27, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • No. Agree, to have an article she'd have to pass WP:N on her own rather than as daughter of the president. I'll also suggest WP:BLP restraint for children in general and particularly for children of politicians to avoid being a surrogate target. For precedent, I note that both Jenna Bush and Chelsea Clinton articles only started when they were well over 21 and safely long after their fathers had left the White House. I do see exceptions to WP:BLP presumption of privacy for say celebrity children who are making public performances on their own, see Jaden Smith, Lily-Rose Depp, and Alison Gold .... but if they are not doing so then no article should be made. Markbassett (talk) 01:38, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Weak No. Doesn't appear notable enough for a BLP article at this point. Also, what is the idea behind the title Malia Obama (First Daughter), is there any other Malia Obama who might be confused with her? Doesn't lend credibility to the proposal. DIY Editor (talk) 14:16, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
  • No. For all the reasons given, too soon, not notable in own right + err on side of caution where a young BLP is concerned. Pincrete (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
  • No This RfC is upside down. It is up to anyone supporting a new article (particularly a BLP) to provide evidence the subject satisfies WP:GNG while complying with WP:NOTINHERITED. Johnuniq (talk) 22:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Meets criteria for separate article
Extended content

::checkY WP:GNG states that notability requires significant coverage. I have seen over 200 articles on Malia Obama before I stopped counting.

checkY WP:GNG states that the sources address the subject directly. This is also met.
checkY WP:GNG states that the sources must be reliable. Many of the sources are similar to CNN, ABC News, etc.
checkY WP:GNG states that the sources should be secondary. Those sources are not the White House or President Obama's Twitter account feed.
checkY WP:GNG states that article content doesn't determine notability. Even if it did, the article was not allowed to remain even a few hours so article improvement was prohibited by the page protection. If you look at most foreign presidents' articles, they were very sketchy (and crap) the first few hours. Give it time! Besides, the Malia Obama article has been written many times. I know of at least 3 (Malia Obama, Malia Obama (First Daughter) and Malia Obama (USA)), some of which were completely deleted without a AFD and some immediately reverted and page protected...this was done faster than if the Secret Service or 007 were involved., like lightening.
checkY Malia Obama is an adult and over the age of 18. Of course, 8 years ago she was a kid. No longer.
checkY Wikipedia has many, many examples of kids of heads of state articles. See Patrick Bouvier Kennedy, who was an infant and died at about age 1 but that survived several AFD proving that kids can have articles even if they are not notable. Yet, Malia Obama is notable. Maybe not Sasha but definitely Malia. Also see Princess Salma bint Abdullah.

::((Red XN I guess President Obama hates it. - no evidence this is true now) President Obama wanted to shield his kids when he first was in the White House and Malia was not even a teen. That was nearly a decade ago. Some might think they are supporting the President if they oppose and article and may think that those who want an article are just deplorable Trump supporters but nothing could be further from the truth. Besides Wikipeda users should not take orders from politicians but follow Wikipedia rules.

checkY Does not violate that notability is not inherited. That guideline does not say that "if you are related to a famous person, you are banned from having a Wikipedia article". Nor does it say that "if you were first noticed by the public because you are related to a famous person, you can never have a wikipedia article". There are many sources, reliable sources, that are articles just about Malia Obama and has no significant coverage of President Barack Obama.
checkY Conflicts of interests exists by voting here. This is because readers here are Family of Barack Obama readers and they may feel their article is threatened if both Michelle, Barack, and Malia have articles, leaving only Sasha and some very obscure Kenyan and Chicago relatives here.

:Bottom line, Malia Obama is a ripe article for being written. It will fluorish and grow if allowed to and not removed after a few minutes or hours. Chris H of New York (talk) 02:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Umm, your account appears to have a total of nine edits, including the above. There is no need to post an off-topic list with nine green ticks—just post, say, two links to sources that show how the subject satisfies WP:GNG while complying with WP:NOTINHERITED. Johnuniq (talk) 03:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Note: Chris H of New York and Shorwak, who started the RfC, appear to be the same person. SarahSV (talk) 19:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment If the decision here is not to have an article, the redirect Malia Obama (First Daughter) should be deleted as unnecessary and salted, or else the redirect should be locked to prevent it from being turned back into an article. As noted, if and when there is an article about her it will be titled Malia Obama without the disambiguation. --MelanieN (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
The "First Daughter" redirect is currently fully protected. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
  • No, per reasons already stated above. This is a common sense deliberation, and besides salting the author(s) should be reprimanded for wasting editors' time. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 14:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There is a serious procedural error since RFC are supposed to be open for 30 days. I know because I just started one on a different subject (but another bio) and was watching RFCs beforehand to see how they are done when I saw this one disappeared. Usernamen1 (talk) 19:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

They don't have to stay open for 30 days. People have stopped commenting; the consensus is clear and unlikely to change; and the RfC was started by an SPA using sockpuppets. There's no point in keeping it going. SarahSV (talk) 19:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

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Editor should remove or fix the references

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Error

Shasha's name is Natasha Snevatia126 (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Snevatia126: That's listed in the section of the article about her. However, because she is commonly called Sasha, that's how we refer to her through the bulk of the article. —C.Fred (talk) 19:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/08/31/obamas_uncle_called_a_fugitive_from_deportation_since_1992/?camp=pm
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