Talk:False protagonist

[Untitled]

Literature: Heinlein's "The Roads Must Roll" is how I found THIS article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll#Plot_summary 199.214.26.9 (talk) 16:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Story with a protagonist played by different people

There are at least three films featuring a cast with a changing protagonist playing the same role in the story (abbreviated the titles): P, I and N. This is kind of a mixture of an ensemble cast and (at first) a false protagonist. How to properly call this idea (for a new Wikipedia article)? And are there more films or other artworks that use the same idea? --Brz7 (talk) 23:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Somes changes.

I removed this part:

A work of fiction that has multiple equal protagonists that then subsequently sees the death of one or more (especially late in the work) is not a use of the false protagonist technique. The method refers only to those works where the audience is deceived into thinking that one character is the primary focus of the work, only to have them replaced completely by another (usually previously unseen) character.

There is no citation, and it comes off as someone lecturing the reader, based on his/her interpretation (ie, original research) of the concept, even though it may in fact be true. If someone can come up with a citation for this strongly-worded statement, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with re-inserting it. In fact, if someone can come up with ANY citations at all, that would be a great improvement. Seeing as how there's only a single reference in the entire article, we could really use some more.

I further minimized the exhaustive list of examples. Most of the article seems to be people adding their favorite cartoon or video game, rather than contributing actual content. Seriously, we don't need so many pointless examples. A handful gets the point across just as well. If someone truly wants to list every single video game or cartoon with a false protagonist, I'd suggest moving it to its own article, so that it doesn't clutter this one, or going to tvtropes.org, which seems to revel in this sort of thing. Before turning this article into a gigantic wasteland of pop culture references again, please consider the readability of the article. I'd rather see more citations and academic discussion added, instead. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Transformers? Really now?

Can the fanboy additions to this article please be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.35.38 (talk) 03:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to remove any unsourced examples you doubt. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I was hoping that by adding the not-so-subtle adjective "Notable" that people would stop adding pointless examples to the article, but it seems as though people are really determined to turn this page into an exhaustive, tvtropes-style database of all media that has a false protagonist (and a few that don't). All I can say is that sometimes you need to be bold and merciless in your editing and hope that consensus goes your way. I usually try to avoid editing the same page twice (it reeks of protectionism, and I dislike the attitude that people "own" Wikipedia pages), but I agree that this page does need some attention now and then, to control the obsessive list-making tendencies of your average Wikipedia editor. If people really want to create long, detailed lists of examples, I would suggest a page unimaginatively titled List of Media With A False Protagonist. That would keep this page from turning into nothing but a continuous stream of pop culture shout-outs, which does actively annoy me, when it occurs. I'm not going to watch this page, or set an alert, or even bother to check it again for another few months, probably, but I hope that if other people agree with me, they'll take the initiative to continue to prune down the list of examples, when eager fanboys add their favorite media. Otherwise, I'll be forced to admit that maybe I'm tilting at windmills here. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Book of Samuel - really?

Citing the Book of Samuel as an example of a false protagonist is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Without entering into any polemics about whether the Old Testament is a Divine Message or the work of men either telling a truthful story or disseminating an acrophyical set of tales, surely it was hardly intended as a literary work designed to toy with readers by luring them in with a false protagonist only to switch protagonists in the course of the work as a clever "tour de force", which is what the literary (or other art form) does with a "false protagonist".

If that was the point, then if anything readers would surely have been more likely to be attracted by a title stating that the book would deal with the stirring exploits of a national hero (David) who founded the only royal dynasty of Israel and defeated its enemies in battle rather than using the name of Samuel?

It seems much more likely that the point of the author (whether Divine or earthly) was that at the time the events were taking place, prophets held a higher position, as the medium through which the Divine Presence made itself known, than "mere" earthly kings (the very point made by Samuel in the Bible when he was informed that Israel wanted "a king, just like other nations" and the prophet responded that Israel, unlike other nations, should obey the Divine rather than a simple earthly power, a response which fell on deaf ears, leading Samuel, very reluctantly, to designate first Saul and then David as king).

Whether or not you believe in the Bible as a source of Divine wisdom, that is certainly the story TOLD by the Bible, and describing it as the use of a simple literary artifice seems to me to be well over the top.Partnerfrance (talk) 18:53, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Tekken Example Source

@SummerPhDv2.0: I think this article should work. At #4 it lists Kazuya and points out his transition from a hero to an antagonist. Asking here first to avoid any more edit conflicts https://www.denofgeek.com/games/tekken-ranking-all-the-characters/ 2604:2000:1107:8A76:FD65:F481:2453:274 (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The article does not say anyone is a "false protagonist". This is original research. "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe you read the article. Besides I did a check on the sources and besides the film and video game examples, they’re not all necessary articles only about a false protagonist character. The ones that are currently being accepted don’t even reference this idea word for word, but simply talk about a character's transition from a protagonist role to an alternative role. The article I gave you does reference this character's portrayal as a hero and later as a villain. I could try and reference the Tekken wiki itself or use the myriad of other sources I went out of my way to provide but I doubt you’d allow that.

” Kazuya is the ultimate asshole. [...] From the very beginning, he’s painted as the generic martial arts hero and gets his revenge on the evil man who vexed him... only to take joy at his action and simply take over his father’s corrupt business [...] It’s why the sccene where Jinpachi dies in his arms is so amazing. He’s the ultimate anti-villain.“

2604:2000:1107:8A76:FD65:F481:2453:274 (talk) 10:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I read the article. Then I searched the article. The word "protagonist" shows up once, calling a different character the protagonist.

The article does not call anyone a false protagonist. Part of the problem seems to be that you believe "protagonist" is simply another word for "hero", which is simply not the case. So, assuming "a hero and later as a villain" = "false protagonist" is original research.

The reason to include examples here is to clarify what a "false protagonist" is. Sources for this article must directly discuss false protagonists.

To be clear: I am not saying everything else in the article is perfect. I am saying your addition is original research and does not belong here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:05, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

As for your removals, they both seem fine.

Yes, someone above argued that the "Book of Samuel" (oh my) is a bad example. I don't know if it is or isn't (the Bible isn't my thing). As presented, it was poorly sourced (not unsourced). The cite given, "Gordon 1986, p. 18." was formatted to link to a source repeatedly used in the article, like it is here. It looks like someone copied the cite from that other article without caring how the cite works or -- and this is the important part -- what the cite says.

I don't have my institutional access at the moment, but I find it difficult to believe that "I & II Samuel: A Commentary (Library of Biblical Interpretation)" from a Christian publishing house is approaching the Books of Samuel as literature and that it just happens to label Samuel as a "false protagonist" on the same page where it is defining the books as prophetic histories. (I've removed the accompanying image as it certainly doesn't belong here if the example is gone.)

Aladdin might be a better example (though again whoever added it gets the name of the book wrong). It is, however, unsourced. I might have looked for a source, but whatever. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

You are nitpicking and purposefully misinterpreting what I’m saying. I understand what a protagonist means, and Kazuya fits that description because the story followed his journey for revenge until the second game, where he transitioned to a villain. My citations explained this but as far as I know you’re only asking for an article pointing out he turned from protagonist to villain, which this article does.

Alot of people don’t know the difference between a protagonist and hero and use the words interchangeably. That’s the case for his article which says he went from hero to villain, and that the story followed his journey in the first installment. That’s a protagonist. Just because it doesn't use Wikipedia terminology that doesn’t invalidate it. None of the other examples say “False protagonist” but still describe the plot device to a T. I understand if you feel like the 2 preexisting Videogame examples are enough, and a third is not needed. That would have to be the reason since everything else I’m doing here is correct. If that’s why you’re removing this example then I’d understand.

Also I only meant to remove Aladdin, as it was unsourced (As per your criteria). My mistake. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:4D4:F66C:C98A:E8A0 (talk) 17:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

You keep saying the character changes "from protagonist to villain" as if the two are inherently not the same character. They might be.

No, I am not looking for a source that uses "Wikipedia terminology". I am looking for sources that directly state the example is a "false protagonist". That is not Wikipedia's term. The term pre-dates Wikipedia, the Internet, etc. That you feel the description used by a source fulfills the definition of a false protagonist is not the source directly stating the character is a false protagonist. - SummerPhD^v2.0 19:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Your first sentence makes no sense. And none of the sources listed reference any character as a “False protagonist”. Word for word. They describe the concept of compares it to another example. According to you criteria, the entire examples section is null and void. Since they don’t say the term word for word then it doesn’t happen because we at Wikipedia are apparently too stupid to look into a definition for a concept. Thanks for clarifying. Goodbye. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:4D4:F66C:C98A:E8A0 (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you did not understand the first sentence.

I'm sorry you do not understand Wikipedia's policies.

Bye. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Deleted examples.

To everyone who added all of those example, please bring your grievances here. Some of them are good but there cannot be too many. And each example also has to be notable, as well as cited by a source that refers to this literary technique in use. It can’t just be a thing among someone’s fandom, it has to be largely known at large by the video game, anime, or film community as an example of this technique. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:1B6:1048:4608:DC56 (talk) 16:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Fantine is the most famous French literary example of the False Protagonist, dying at the end of the opening section of the novel Les Miserables from an STD. Her daughter Cosette replaces her as the novel's actual thematic "main character". I support this example being restored. Although the character is the secondary protagonist to Jean Valjean, it is an extremely famous example. You should watch the 2012 film adaptation where she was played by Anne Hathaway in her Oscar winning performance. Colliric (talk) 02:11, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

False false protagonists

Most of the examples of false protagonists given here are unsourced, as are a couple of paragraphs of key commentary above the lists. As original research isn't allowed, no entry should be based on the editor's own evaluation as to whether a character qualifies as a false protagonist. This should be determined by their description as such in reliable sources. I even disagree with a couple of the examples, in particular A Clockwork Orange. How did Alex become an antagonist? Who, then, is the protagonist that he's there to thwart? No, he remains the protagonist, the character who is present throughout the film and around whom the entire story revolves. That, until the end (or nearly to the end), he was evil is beside the point.

I've just tagged the article over these concerns. Largoplazo (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The Cube, 1997

Is Maurice Dean Wint, who plays police officer Quentin McNeal in the 1997 film a false protagonist, as it shows him as the de facto leader of the group of "prisoners" and sets him up as the hero of the film, but then he shows himself to be crazed into the film and is pretty much the "bad guy"? 88.105.145.21 (talk) 01:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC)