Talk:Battle of Aspindza

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Military history: Ottoman / Early Modern

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Totleben's role[edit]

“

As soon as the small army of Erekle and large army of Totleben were about to meet and merge, Totleben and his army changed course and returned to Russia. Totleben's plan was to let the Ottoman Empire completely destroy the Kartli-Kakhetian army along with the king. Russia, then, could easily incorporate the kingdom into the country.

”

I checked two sources and the passage above appears a bit inaccurate: first, Totleben's army was much smaller than Erekle's and numbered only 800 men (Edge of Empires: A History of Georgia, p. 243) and second while the sources talk a lot about Totleben's cowardice, intrigues and quarrels with Georgians they don't present this as part of a grand plan to annex Kartli-Kakheti (ibid, "Russia intended to turn the Black Sea into a Russian ... lake: saving, unifying, even acquiring Georgia was not yet on the agenda"). Gvosdev says in Imperial Policies and Perspectives towards Georgia, 1760–1819 (pp. 35-37) that Totleben considered annexing Georgia in May 1770 (that is, after the battle) and that when the word of the conflict reached St Petersburg he was promptly replaced. Alaexis_¿question? 19:56, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alaexis - I suggest that you go ahead and rewrite the short paragraph that describes the situation. Even though there are several references, the main paragraph has no citations. Interesting that whoever added the Edge of Empires: A History of Georgia to the references only cited the fact that Georgia was victorious. So again, add your new reference (Gvosdev) and rewrite the paragraph citing Rayfield and Gvosdev as appropriate. Why are you hesitant? VFF0347 (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert in this area and so I wanted to get feedback from other editors who might monitor this page. It's not that important, the change can wait a few days. Alaexis_¿question? 21:53, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rayfield's book contains numerous inaccuracies and it is advisable to cross-check it with other references. Totleben's force numbered c. 3800 (See Gvosdev, p. 34). As for Totleben's desertion, the Wikipedia article errs, claiming that the Russians returned home. In fact, Totleben withdrew towards Tbilisi to effect a coup against Heraclius, whom he did not expect to win a battle against the Ottoman forces.

Under his command, Russian troops closed off Georgian roads, seized Georgian fortresses and stripped them of armaments and supplies, and ravaged the countryside around their camps as if they were in enemy territory. Provisions were seized from Georgian villages without payment, and Russian soldiers arbitrarily placed Georgian subjects, over whom they had no legal jurisdiction, under arrest. - Gvosdev, p. 35

In May 1770, the general was preparing to seize control of Tbilisi, depose Erekle, deport him as a prisoner to Russia and annex Georgia directly to the Russian Empire. In fact, in the Ananuri region, where he was based, Totleben had begun to administer the oath of allegiance to the Empress Catherine to the local nobility and peasants. - Gvosdev, p. 37

Indignant at Todtleben's desertion , Erekle now seriously considered siding with the malcontents in the Russian corps to remove him forcibly from his command.30 Todtleben for his part made no secret of his intention to depose Erekle and send him into exile in Russia , together with any of the Georgian nobility who opposed his plans , and then to annex Georgia to the Russian crown . - Lang, D. M., The Last Years of the Georgian Monarchy, 1658-1832. New York, 1957, p. 170.

--Kober^Talk 14:33, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, this is very helpful. I might use Gvosdev to expand on Totleben's actions and his eventual removal. Alaexis_¿question? 21:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]