Talk:Bad and Boujee
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The "composition" section[edit]
- Has no encyclopedic value beyond being a mere unanalysed listing of trivial characteristics.
- Is ostensibly wrong
- Official video: clearly not a major tonality;
- this has unambiguously "The tonic of “Bad and Boujee” is an Eb. The higher background melody (pictured immediately above) utilizes the Eb minor scale. Minor scales are nothing special. Big whoop, like every sad song ever is in a minor key. The bassline (pictured above the previous paragraph) is also centered around Eb. HOWEVER! The notes surrounding that Eb function differently meaning that the bassline does not use the Eb minor scale" - [no mention of Gb];
- the chord structure is evidently centered around Eb (D# is a rarely used equivalent) ([1]); also evidenced here (if you click the the eighth notes on top, you get an option to transpose: the default is clearly Eb minor; same here if you pick "interactive viewer" and select the #/b option)
- So, in summary, the preponderance of sources say Eb minor; and that (along with a bit of musical common sense) is what we go by. Picking the one source that says otherwise is WP:CHERRYPICKING.
- Now stop making accusations and instead go and relax (off-wiki if need be). Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- It may have been an "unanalysed listing of trivial characteristics", but it need not be. Deleting it was premature; see Mood (song)#Composition for example. I'm going to restore the section, but I'll leave it to you to add supporting sources; you should have done that from the start. I've no idea how to cite a web app; maybe you can include instructions for confirming the key in a footnote. Yappy2bhere (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- Except Mood has actual sources which analyse this song and point out the characteristics. Here we only have the details. It would be like saying about the Prelude in C major that it is in C major (duh!) and that it is typically played at a tempo around 60-70 beats per minute: makes no sense if there is no deeper analysis. The only source we have that does anything ressembling this is the medium.com page, but that is at best a dubious, self-published source (see WP:RSP and WP:SPS) and I'd rather have either something more solid for this analysis, or remove it entirely. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- I understand. I'm extrapolating from WP:REDLINK, WP:STUB, and the like which generally agree that if a thing could conceivably be expanded or elaborated then it should be left in place until it's clear whether it can/will be or not. I did see the Medium article and do know that it isn't reliable per se, but the author isn't entirely dubious [2] and there may be other sources. idk, haven't looked. I do know that user:SHUTUPGOODLORD has added key and tempo to several more articles, so you might ask if he has plans to expand these sections, and how. Yappy2bhere (talk) 23:43, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- Except that applies to articles as a whole. In this case, it's WP:V which applies - if there's no real reliable source, we're better off not putting information which cannot be reliably sourced, doubly so if (as in this case) it is actually wrong. The medium source could be used if there's really nothing else, but that's a last resort; and the poor presentation [putting the correct key signature is like 5 seconds of work no matter which sheet music editor you're using; and in addition the tone isn't very professional] from someone who supposedly has a masters in music theory is not particularly attractive. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm very keen on good references but in this case all I thought was needed for WP:V was a second WP:RS to confirm that the song doesn't shift from a minor intro into the major like, say, King Herod's Song, thereby supporting the claim that the key in the title misinterprets the signature [3]. That is, signature per the existing source, corresponding key per the second, and maybe a note explaining how the key in the title isn't right but isn't exactly wrong. If you'd rather cite one of the other two sheet music sites instead, describing where to click and what to look for in the cite's postscript, that's fine too, better really.
If the section can't be expanded then delete it, but maybe move the (sourced) key into the lede? Perhaps the tempo too, but the tempo is taken from the sheet music which isn't necessarily the tempo of the recording, so I don't think it belongs here outside the "Composition" section.
Yappy2bhere (talk) 07:48, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm very keen on good references but in this case all I thought was needed for WP:V was a second WP:RS to confirm that the song doesn't shift from a minor intro into the major like, say, King Herod's Song, thereby supporting the claim that the key in the title misinterprets the signature [3]. That is, signature per the existing source, corresponding key per the second, and maybe a note explaining how the key in the title isn't right but isn't exactly wrong. If you'd rather cite one of the other two sheet music sites instead, describing where to click and what to look for in the cite's postscript, that's fine too, better really.
- Except that applies to articles as a whole. In this case, it's WP:V which applies - if there's no real reliable source, we're better off not putting information which cannot be reliably sourced, doubly so if (as in this case) it is actually wrong. The medium source could be used if there's really nothing else, but that's a last resort; and the poor presentation [putting the correct key signature is like 5 seconds of work no matter which sheet music editor you're using; and in addition the tone isn't very professional] from someone who supposedly has a masters in music theory is not particularly attractive. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- I understand. I'm extrapolating from WP:REDLINK, WP:STUB, and the like which generally agree that if a thing could conceivably be expanded or elaborated then it should be left in place until it's clear whether it can/will be or not. I did see the Medium article and do know that it isn't reliable per se, but the author isn't entirely dubious [2] and there may be other sources. idk, haven't looked. I do know that user:SHUTUPGOODLORD has added key and tempo to several more articles, so you might ask if he has plans to expand these sections, and how. Yappy2bhere (talk) 23:43, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- Except Mood has actual sources which analyse this song and point out the characteristics. Here we only have the details. It would be like saying about the Prelude in C major that it is in C major (duh!) and that it is typically played at a tempo around 60-70 beats per minute: makes no sense if there is no deeper analysis. The only source we have that does anything ressembling this is the medium.com page, but that is at best a dubious, self-published source (see WP:RSP and WP:SPS) and I'd rather have either something more solid for this analysis, or remove it entirely. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- It may have been an "unanalysed listing of trivial characteristics", but it need not be. Deleting it was premature; see Mood (song)#Composition for example. I'm going to restore the section, but I'll leave it to you to add supporting sources; you should have done that from the start. I've no idea how to cite a web app; maybe you can include instructions for confirming the key in a footnote. Yappy2bhere (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- There's a problem with tempo. Tempo was originally given as 120 per cited source [4], but your sources (both Hal Leonard) have 130. Current 127bpm was an WP:unsourced change [5]. Using HL's value. Yappy2bhere (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- Key's in the lede; key, composition tempo, and performance tempo are sourced in "Composition" [6]. Apparently performance tempo is a factor in harmonic mixing of different songs; idk if it's encyclopedic, but it's sourced. Yappy2bhere (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
About Takeoff...[edit]
I didn't wanna edit this in the article on the offchance that it gets reverted for some reason... but wouldn't it be noteworthy to bring up Takeoff's omission from the song? It was talked about nonstop for the longest... just a thought. 4TheLuvOfFax (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)