Talk:Angelo Emo/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk · contribs) 12:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at this shortly. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prelim[edit]

Lede and infobox[edit]

  • Lede says "regarded as the last great admiral of the Venetian Republic", while main text says "the last of the great captains of the Venetian navy," which I believe isn't entirely the same thing
    • 'Captain' here in the sense of 'great military commander', but you are right it is confusing. Changed.
  • Link squadron
    • Done.
  • "commands and administrative appointments"
    • Fixed.
  • "Already in 1775"
    • Fixed.
  • Not a huge thing, but it isn't usual to keep flags in biography infoboxes
    • Removed.
  • Main text does not back up his dead specifically in La Valletta, Hospitaller Malta
    • Added.
  • Is Capitano Straordinario delle Navi a rank or position? If it was wartime only I would lean towards the latter, leaving Provveditore Generale da Mar as his rank in the infobox
    • Well, at this time, there was not really a distinction. Compare for example with ranks/positions like Admiral of the Blue etc in the Royal Navy of the time.
  • Would be nice to have a caption for the infobox image
    • Added.

Early life and career[edit]

  • "Eyebrows"?
    • Fixed.
  • "Angelo Emo was educated" no need to repeat forename
    • Fixed.
  • Link humanistic
    • Done.
  • "whose ancient glories" a little much. perhaps "achievements" would work better
    • Changed to 'military achievements'
  • cursus honorum links to a page on the Roman use rather than the Venetian use 1000 years later, so suggest adding a word or two of explanation
    • Changed to a wiktionary link.
  • "he entered" > "Emo entered" for first mention in new paragraph
    • Fixed.
  • "and already his first"
    • Fixed.
  • A 74 is a third rate, not a first rate
    • It is according to the Venetian practice of designating ships (which is why I also did not link it). I added a footnote on this. I am following sources here, where they always use the Venetian categorization.
  • Link second rate, and give the gun number if possible

Voyage of the San Carlo[edit]

  • "At the time" at what time? Not sure if you mean the century or a specific year, etc
    • Clarified
  • You might consider turning the sentence beginning "Venetian successes proved ephemeral..." into a note
    • I have pondered turning more of the section into a note, but decided against it, as the context is important: this was Venice fighting a rearguard action to revive its commerce, and Emo played a significant role there.
  • A second rate isn't a large frigate by any naval terminology I'm aware of. That would be a fifth or possibly fourth rate. If the Venetians had a different rating system then you should explain that
    • This is the Venetian system indeed, hence the clarification in parentheses. Per the footnote above.
  • Link frigate
    • Done
  • Assume Emo was in particular command of one of the three ships; do we know which one?
  • "27 September 1658" no need to repeat year here
  • Link pilot
    • Done.
  • Link vice-consul
    • Done.
  • "to two" tow?
    • Fixed.
  • Link jury-rig
    • Done.
  • Link stern
    • Done.
  • It would be useful to mention earlier that the merchant ships were waiting at Lisbon, I'd been assuming Emo was going to have to keep going to England!
    • Done
  • What's this "original total of 1236"? Earlier on you say that San Carlos's crew complement was 590; clarify if it's the entire squadron
    • Done
  • "universal acclaim" is very broad; are there any examples of particular notables congratulating him?
    • Preto says "l'universale plauso del governo" without further comment. Have switched to "acclaim from the government".
  • "in August 1759" ibid repeated year
    • Removed.

Show of force at Algiers[edit]

  • "In 1765 Emo was promoted"
    • Changed.
  • "Emo sailed to Algiers and threatened..." do we have a more specific date for this, or what force he had at his disposal?
  • "exclusive Order of the Golden Stole" I don't believe exclusive is necessary; one assumes it's not a free for all in any national order
    • Removed. The reason I added it was that its membership was deliberately kept low, at around twenty.

Russo-Turkish War[edit]

  • "to a cruise"
    • Removed.
  • Why is Emo protecting French citizens as well as Venetians?
    • Couldn't find anything on this, but I assume this is because the French did not have fleet operating in the Aegean. It is still common practice that one country will ask another country with presence in a specific warzone to take care of its citizens there.
  • "making sound judgments on their intentions" this is very vague?
    • Indeed, rephrased, hopefully better now.
  • "subjects of the Sultan" what sultan?
    • Clarified.
  • "Emo pursued them at Kythira..." when?
    • Date is not provided, unfortunately.
  • "caught in a storm"
    • Changed.
  • if we know his squadron was of four ships, useful to say this when first introducing the squadron at the beginning of the section
    • The four ships caught at Elos were not necessarily the same ships as he sailed with in 1770.
  • What type of ship was Ercole?
    • Added.
  • "swept into the sea"
    • Changed.
  • "his personal fortune"?
    • Changed.
  • "In 1772 Emo departed"
    • Changed.
  • Link Royal Navy
    • Done.
  • Can we have a translation for Savio alle Acque?
    • Done.

Demonstration off Tripoli[edit]

  • "On 18 July 1778 Emo again" there's been quite a few paragraphs in a row beginning with "In/on [date]..", suggest changing a few of them to avoid this feeling like a diary
    • Good point, done.
  • I note that there is some differentiation in how you introduce ships; if possible keep to one style (e.g. number of guns, rate of ship, name)
    • Have tried to fix inconsistencies, but the sources I rely on are sometimes also inconsistent.
  • "confront the provocations of the Pashalik of Tripolitania, which tried to exploit the "right of search"" suggest "confront the Pashalik of Tripolitania, who had tried to..."
    • Rephrased.

Director of the Arsenal and naval reforms[edit]

  • "Emo personally introduced"
    • Rephrased.
  • Perhaps "educated Paul on the details" works better than "introduced Paul into the details"
    • Good point, done.
  • "he managed to avoid the appointment by pleading ill health" is there a particular reason why he did not want it?
    • Clarified. In short, while a great honour, Venetian ambassadors were expected to pay from their own purse to maintain the status required. Plus I don't think any European diplomat was thrilled to be sent to St Petersburg at the time, away from all the baroque pleasures of the Western European courts...
  • Instead of just describing the Arsenal as a "vital institution", provide some words on what exactly its purpose was (not the same as a more standard arsenal!)
    • Good point, done.
  • Are there no more details on his move to the Signoria of Venice? Sounds important
    • I've tried to find what position Eickhoff means here, and have drawn a blank, especially as from 1784 on he was almost constantly on campaign. I think Eickhoff got a bit confused with his dates (he dates Emo's appointment to the Arsenal in 1771, and he did hold senior government offices after that). I have rephrased this.
  • "and until the end of the Republic" a particular date would be useful here
    • Done.
  • Sentence beginning "In 1783 Emo led the negotiations..." seems awkwardly out of place where it is
    • True. Have moved it up, even though it breaks the chronological order.

Naval campaigns against Tunis[edit]

  • "Emo was elected as"
    • Fixed.
  • "on a slow voyage"
    • Fixed.
  • "including the Emo's flagship"
    • Fixed.
  • Link bomb vessel
    • Done.
  • "On 1 September 1784" repeated year
    • Fixed.
  • "Emo's squadron anchored"
    • Fixed.
  • Move Tunis link to first mention
    • The Beylik of Tunis is meant, not the city. Hence 'city of Tunis' later on.
  • "12 October 1784" repeated year
    • Fixed.
  • "Emo was forced to return"
    • Fixed.
  • Why does the Bey refusing to negotiate mean Emo has to return to Malta/Sicily? Was he not there to bombard the place as well as negotiate?
    • Tunis used to lie somewhat inland, and bombarding it was not an option. Apparently there was some attempt at negotiation, which failed quickly. I have rephrased accordingly.
  • "15–17 August 1785" repeated year
    • Fixed.
  • "As the Bey continued to insist on his previous demands" what were the demands?
    • The source doesn't say; I assume related to the compensation that he claimed from Venice.
  • "on 6, 18,..."
    • Fixed.
  • "daring" seems unnecessary here
    • Fixed.
  • "effects"
    • Fixed.
  • "military campaigns"
    • Fixed.

Final years and death[edit]

  • " in August 1787" repeated year
    • Removed.
  • Do we know what the Paros foray was for?
    • Unfortunately not.
  • "the peace negotiations"
    • Removed.
  • Choose whether you're prefixing ship names with "the" or not, try not to switch between methods
    • Fixed.

Legacy[edit]

  • "Already at the time of Emo's death"
    • Fixed.
  • "Girolamo Dandolo insisted"
    • Fixed.
  • "deputy Tommaso Condulmer"
    • Fixed.
  • "convincingly disproved by modern historians" such as?
    • Clarified.

References[edit]

  • References look good. AGF on print sources.

@Cplakidas: Hi, that's all I have for now. Will await your responses. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Thanks for taking the time and a very thorough review. Apologies for the delayed response, will start addressing your comments from tomorrow. Constantine ✍ 15:26, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: Hi, just checking whether you're still on top of this? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:47, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: yes, hope to finish tomorrow :) Constantine ✍ 20:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: your comments have been addressed or otherwise responded to, please have a look. Constantine ✍ 16:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: Apologies that I've left this unanswered for so long. Happy with your edits, some follow-up comments below:
  • "As the Bey continued to insist on his previous demands for a," missing something here
  • Thanks for catching that. I've removed it as I don't want to add my own interpretations here.
  • "Emo died at L Valetta, Malta" sp?
  • Fixed.
  • Savio alle Acque is a duplicated link
  • Fixed.
  • Re the Emo portrait; my understanding is that by tagging the image as own work (despite dating it to 1786), the editor is claiming they created the painting. They do not hold the copyright for the simple reproduction of a painting; the lack of copyright is based off the age of the painting and fact that the actual author/artist is very very dead. Thus the current tag is, as far as I'm aware, incorrect
  • Portrait removed and replaced with the bust.
Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, Pickersgill-Cunliffe, fixed. Constantine ✍ 09:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: My apologies for the massive delay to my response here. Passing this article as satisfying the GA criteria. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:30, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pickersgill-Cunliffe no worries, thanks a lot for a thorough review! Constantine ✍ 21:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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