Category talk:Political families of the United States

Question

what qualifies a family as political? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.155.53 (talk • contribs) 06:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Political families are not politicians

On 22:51, 30 October 2023, I removed [Category:Political families of the United States] from the Category:American politicians, with the rationale, "although political families are related to politicians, they are not politicians".

On 00:49, 3 November 2023 , User:Smasongarrison made a revert, with the rationale, "they may not be politicians themselves, but they are related to politicians. categories are to aid navigation. removing the category makes it much harder to navigate".

I disagree that my edit made it "much harder to navigate". First, [Category:Political families of the United States] has three other parent categories that work fine for purpose. Second, including it in the [Category:American politicians] creates unnecessary complication in the category and navigation problems.

For example, currently I am working in populating a Category:Non-targeted killings of politicians. In order to do that, I am using PetScan, with the intersection of Homicides and Politicians, to try determining politicians victims of homicide. But the inclusion of topics that are not the topics the categories purport to be makes the task much harder. Instead of just getting a list of politicians who are in the homicide category, I get other pages that are related to politicians but are not politicians. I get results such as Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, A Plea for Captain John Brown, and Kansas (Kansas album).

I think this monumental mixing should not be the case and makes the work of categorization much harder. If categories are included in their specific categories this sort of unexpected entries would not happen as much. But if pages are wantonly included in categories only because they are related but are not really the topic of the categories, then this sort of complications happen.

Granted, many categories are hightly subjective, but others are not nearly as much. Such as politicians. Politicians are politicians, not houses, not books, not songs, not families. And only politicians should be included in the Category:Politicians. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 06:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so there's a lot to unpack in your comment here. However, fundamentally, political families in the united states should be easy to get to american politicians. By removing the category and subverting the long standing norm for how family categories are linked, it makes it much hard to find. I encourage you to look at how other categories are structured. Mason (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

How does it make it much harder to find? It would appear you did not read my post. Also, you need to balance that belief with the problem of categorizing indirect topics in a category that is very specific as Politicians. You did not address my concerns and it is helpful to try seek a consensus on things. Last time I was working on the potential category aforementioned. I noticed entries like Jean-Luc Godard. I spent a while trying to find out why he was appearing in PetScan in the intersection of Politicians and Homicide. Because he is a film director not a politician.

I spent time reading through the body trying to find out his political activities, thinking maybe he got elected or was a party official. No. His involvement with politics was his filming. That's it. He is not a politician. And yet he appears in said Petscan query. Why? Because he was placed in the Category:French communists and that category was listed under Category:Left-wing politicians in France. Problem is that not all people who espouse a communist ideology are politicians. As you can see, adding topics that are not specific to the category creates problems. Question is as you claim, do that scheme of categorizing benefit more than harms categorization? To me I think it harms more than benefit. Only politicians should be included in the [Category:Politicians]. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:20, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

You are subverting the long standing norm for how family categories are linked. By removing politicians as the parent, you are making it much hard to find the category, as that is the norm for categories at present. I encouraged you to look at how other categories are structured, and I still do encourage you. I understand that you like using petscan, and that your changes seem to be in part designed to make petscan more convenient for you. However, you're changing the category structure, in a way that is not helpful when it comes to family categories. I encourage you to hold off on isolating categories like this, until after the discussion is closed. Mason (talk) 21:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

You are failing to explain how it is "much hard to find the category". Where does it say it is the norm. Can you share a link to a policy or guideline to back your statement? But, in the spirit of consensus, I am going to accept your encouragement and won't be applying my rationale regarding removing category political families from parent categories until this dispute is clarified. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:39, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

So per WP:EDITCONSENSUS "Wikipedia consensus usually occurs implicitly. An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted." So what I was trying to convey is that the current category structure where FOOian politicians is the parent of Political families of the FOO, as is practically every other political family category in Category:Political families by country. The expectation is that the American family category will follow the same norms as the other FOOian family categories.

Similarly, the Category:Business families by country‎, Category:Noble families by nationality etc all have the same structure.

For example Category:Business families of the United States is is described as "Families of the United States whose members include, but are not limited to, businesspeople." and has the parent categories of Category:American families; Category:Business families by country;Category:Business in the United States; Category:American businesspeople. Mason (talk) 21:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I guess we need a centralized discussion about it. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep. I agree that you're concern about overapplying the occupation for politicians is reasonable, I just don't know of a straightforward alternative that could solve the problem, without making navigation harder. If you'd like to propose an alternative parenting structure for all the family categories, you're welcome to. Mason (talk) 22:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)